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Author Topic: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.  (Read 7278 times)

Sophia C

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #90 on: June 16, 2014, 03:48:13 pm »
Quote from: Aster Breo;150208
From what I've read, this probably isn't consistently the case.  IIRC, there are indications that some tribes might have left their gods at home and adopted new ones, but that others imported their own gods or blended their gods with those of the people already living there. Similarly, people who left Ireland may have continued to worship their own gods in their new homes or adopted the local gods or both.


Indeed, and my understanding is that there are some gods of tribes and some gods of land, with many of the land deities being river goddesses (though obviously not exclusively so). Ceisiwr Serith talks about this in 'Deep Ancestors', suggesting it may have been a Proto-Indo-European trend for tribes to move with some tribal gods (primarily male figures) and encounter land goddesses (mainly female) as they went. How well supported that is academically, though, I'm not sure.

Quote
Unless you view the gods as being physically attached to the land somehow?


My sense is that many Gaelic and Brythonic deities manifest slightly differently in different places. I don't think that means they're inaccessible in other places, but possibly different. I have had a question for some time about whether the difference between North American and British druidry, for example, is as much to do with the way the gods manifest in different places - and how we interact with that difference - as it is about culture/sociology.

...And I must now stop pondering that before I get thrown out by the other sociologists for being woo. :eek:
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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #91 on: June 16, 2014, 04:00:53 pm »
Quote from: llwynog;150203
I did not mean to suggest that the Celtic deities and beliefs are not worth pursuing at all. I am not Lakota and will never be. What I am trying to understand is how do I connect  with the Celtic deities if the are associated with the land and can Celtic beliefs and rituals be used to connect with the deities of associate with where I live.

 
"How can we sing the songs of the Lord in a foreign land?"
- Psalm 137:4
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

llwynog

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #92 on: June 17, 2014, 10:30:48 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;150218
"How can we sing the songs of the Lord in a foreign land?"
- Psalm 137:4

 
Interesting quote. Can you elaborate?

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #93 on: June 17, 2014, 10:55:19 am »
Quote from: llwynog;150287
Interesting quote. Can you elaborate?

 
Dude.

You can go talk to Jewish people right now about how they manage to reconcile the concerns of Psalm 137 with living in Diaspora.  (You can go talk to Christian people too, but I suspect a lower proportion of them will understand what you're asking about.)  That's an actual text regarding belief with an actual living religious tradition that is actually available in the present.

If you can't manage to figure that out when it's basically handed to you on a platter, how are you going to solve it when you're dealing with lost religions with no living practitioners?
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Juniperberry

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #94 on: June 17, 2014, 02:01:33 pm »
Quote from: llwynog;150203

I did not mean to suggest that the Celtic deities and beliefs are not worth pursuing at all. I am not Lakota and will never be. What I am trying to understand is how do I connect  with the Celtic deities if the are associated with the land and can Celtic beliefs and rituals be used to connect with the deities of associate with where I live.

You know, your questions are similar to the ones I have and which have been niggling away at me recently. I feel right at home with the human spirituality of Germanic paganism but I also have a hard time feeling connected to the generally accepted pantheon. There's always the question of what I may not be seeing or knowing that would make that connection easier. Do you feel that way?

Thinking over your threads and my own experiences yesterday I had a realization about where I'm at with the problem that you might also find helpful, but I don't want to derail your thread if we're not on the same page.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 02:02:03 pm by Juniperberry »
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

llwynog

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #95 on: June 17, 2014, 03:11:19 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;150293
Dude.

You can go talk to Jewish people right now about how they manage to reconcile the concerns of Psalm 137 with living in Diaspora.  (You can go talk to Christian people too, but I suspect a lower proportion of them will understand what you're asking about.)  That's an actual text regarding belief with an actual living religious tradition that is actually available in the present.

If you can't manage to figure that out when it's basically handed to you on a platter, how are you going to solve it when you're dealing with lost religions with no living practitioners?

 
Thank you I will check it out.

llwynog

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #96 on: June 17, 2014, 03:30:29 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;150312
You know, your questions are similar to the ones I have and which have been niggling away at me recently. I feel right at home with the human spirituality of Germanic paganism but I also have a hard time feeling connected to the generally accepted pantheon. There's always the question of what I may not be seeing or knowing that would make that connection easier. Do you feel that way?

Thinking over your threads and my own experiences yesterday I had a realization about where I'm at with the problem that you might also find helpful, but I don't want to derail your thread if we're not on the same page.

 
Please add a direction. I am really trying to make a connection and any insight would be appreciated. My first problem when I decided to consider paganism was to deconstruct what I knew. This is not so easy but I found it essential do discard what I though I knew. I want to find a connection with the Celtic deities but maybe I will not be able to. Just knowing the names of the deities is insufficient for me and I am speaking for me only. I am impressed with those in this form that have connected with these gods and goddesses. It is interesting that you are looking at Germanic paganism because while slowly wading through Pagan Britain I have also started reading Old Norse Religion in long term perspectives. I have only started but I have found this to be much more interesting and helpful so far. I started the other thread in hopes of getting input about starting over with what we do know. I do not think I presented it right.

That was too long of a preamble when what  I want to say is I would like to here what you have to say and how you are dealing with trying to connecting to the pantheon.

llwynog

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #97 on: June 17, 2014, 03:32:46 pm »
Quote from: Naomi J;150216
Indeed, and my understanding is that there are some gods of tribes and some gods of land, with many of the land deities being river goddesses (though obviously not exclusively so). Ceisiwr Serith talks about this in 'Deep Ancestors', suggesting it may have been a Proto-Indo-European trend for tribes to move with some tribal gods (primarily male figures) and encounter land goddesses (mainly female) as they went. How well supported that is academically, though, I'm not sure.



My sense is that many Gaelic and Brythonic deities manifest slightly differently in different places. I don't think that means they're inaccessible in other places, but possibly different. I have had a question for some time about whether the difference between North American and British druidry, for example, is as much to do with the way the gods manifest in different places - and how we interact with that difference - as it is about culture/sociology.

...And I must now stop pondering that before I get thrown out by the other sociologists for being woo. :eek:

 
Very interesting insight. I really appreciate the input I have been getting. Hopefully I will make more progress but I will take what you say into consideration.

Juniperberry

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #98 on: June 17, 2014, 04:44:18 pm »
Quote from: llwynog;150324
That was too long of a preamble when what  I want to say is I would like to here what you have to say and how you are dealing with trying to connecting to the pantheon.

Some other time I'm going to have to sit and organize and connect the thoughts swirling around my head about this, but here's the gist of it:

Underneath the general understanding of the Germanic pantheon there seems to be evidence of a patrilineal totemic clan structure. And from what Naomi wrote, and from evidence of the matronae, it seems a version would be possible in Celtic spirituality as well.

Creation: There are a few different creation myths in Germanic mythologies, each with a different god creating/fathering a different tribe.  Along with this are the Matronae/Mothers of tribes--numbering in the thousands.

Soul: Germanic spirituality has the belief of a fylgja (placenta) which is the animal/woman spirit that accompanies the birth of a child. This fylgja can identify which tribe/family you belong to. A hamingja  is the personified familial luck spirit which is passed down to family members.

Death: Legends of the dead returning to an ancestral hall in the mountains.

So what I'm thinking is that a person was born with a tribal, ancestral god. In Shaw's book on Germanic goddess he talks about Eostre (for example) being the goddess of a tribe that had a linguistically similar name...goddess of the  people from the east rather than goddess of the east.

These tribal gods are part of self. They aren't connected to land, or function, or natural phenomena; they're your essence, your spirit.. Outside of those gods we also live among gods of the sky, gods of beasts, gods of abstracts. Those aren't our personal gods. Our personal gods are those we have been born to ( and whose names we have forgotten?)

That god/dess is one we take with us whether its America, Scandinavia, Ireland.

Anyway, there's a lot I need to consider with that, and see how well it fits, but something about it rings really true to me. Like I said, it also sounds like there might be a similar version within Celticism, and might be something for you to consider looking into as well?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 04:45:39 pm by Juniperberry »
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

llwynog

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #99 on: June 18, 2014, 09:24:16 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;150328


Anyway, there's a lot I need to consider with that, and see how well it fits, but something about it rings really true to me. Like I said, it also sounds like there might be a similar version within Celticism, and might be something for you to consider looking into as well?

 
I am impressed. That was one of the best insights I have read. I reduced the quote only to save space but everything you said was amazing. It is hard sometimes to write down what you believe because it is personal and getting the words and ideas together to express what you believe is no an easy task yet you message was written so well. Thank you for sharing that; it has given me  many things to consider. Have you read the book "Old Norse religion in long-term perspectives"? It is a publication from a project associated with the University of Lund called vagar till Midgard or as my google translator put it Roads to Midgard. It is a multidisciplinary project to understand Norse beliefs and their change over time.

Juniperberry

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #100 on: June 18, 2014, 01:26:52 pm »
Quote from: llwynog;150384
Have you read the book "Old Norse religion in long-term perspectives"? It is a publication from a project associated with the University of Lund called vagar till Midgard or as my google translator put it Roads to Midgard. It is a multidisciplinary project to understand Norse beliefs and their change over time.


I've only read snippets of it on Google Books. I'm more interested in continental Germanic paganism so I tend to read more in that area, though Norse studies are always helpful since they're so closely related and it helps to fill in gaps. Have you been using Google Scholar?
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

llwynog

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #101 on: June 18, 2014, 04:28:30 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;150390
I've only read snippets of it on Google Books. I'm more interested in continental Germanic paganism so I tend to read more in that area, though Norse studies are always helpful since they're so closely related and it helps to fill in gaps. Have you been using Google Scholar?

 
I am more interested in Germanic paganism also because I think there is a l of overlap with Celtic paganism but I got the book based on some samples I read.  I am almost half way and I am impressed with its presentation. The advantage of studying the Norse paganism is that it lasted longer with conversions coming late compared to the rest of Europe. One of the things they emphasize is how the archeological evidence shows changes in practices/rituals and divides it into pre-roman influence, Roman influence and Christian influence. It also points to the diversity that was present. These could certainty be associated in changes in beliefs. One example is evidence towards offerings to sacred sites. There is a shift from offerings in bogs and natural sites to structural places after the influence of Roman culture.

acidrica

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #102 on: June 18, 2014, 07:24:28 pm »
Quote from: llwynog;150396
*snip*

Okay, this may ruffle some feathers, but I've been researching this all day (by coincidence), and you may want to google 'Declaration of War Against Exploiters of Lakota Spirituality'. Said declaration of war was passed in 1993 by about 500 representatives of various Lakota tribes (about 40). This was passed unanimously.

One teacher does not speak for an entire culture of people. I wouldn't assume it was okay to be a part of x religion if only one person said 'sure'. I'd ask more than one. I'd figure out what the general opinion was. This is particularly important with cultures harmed by colonialism. If you want to honor the local spirits, do it in your own way. Figure it out yourself. Ask the spirits what they want. Maybe do something that's basically universal, like leaving offerings at a tree(maybe?) or something. That's my opinion.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 07:24:52 pm by acidrica »

Juniperberry

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #103 on: June 19, 2014, 01:42:01 am »
Quote from: llwynog;150396
I am more interested in Germanic paganism also because I think there is a l of overlap with Celtic paganism

Yep.

What I did was take Simek's Dictionary of Northern Mythology and highlight all the stuff that was specific to Germanic paganism. Then I research those things and I have a narrower focus for a few months and don't feel so overwhelmed. Bonus, the book includes some Celtic entries as well. :)
« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 01:42:59 am by Juniperberry »
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

herenow

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #104 on: June 24, 2014, 03:07:25 pm »
Quote from: llwynog;150396
I am more interested in Germanic paganism also because I think there is a l of overlap with Celtic paganism but I got the book based on some samples I read.  I am almost half way and I am impressed with its presentation. The advantage of studying the Norse paganism is that it lasted longer with conversions coming late compared to the rest of Europe. One of the things they emphasize is how the archeological evidence shows changes in practices/rituals and divides it into pre-roman influence, Roman influence and Christian influence. It also points to the diversity that was present. These could certainty be associated in changes in beliefs. One example is evidence towards offerings to sacred sites. There is a shift from offerings in bogs and natural sites to structural places after the influence of Roman culture.


Many places in Europe were influenced by the Roman culture.

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