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Author Topic: Few questions about Asatru and others  (Read 7763 times)

Crohm

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Re: Few questions about Asatru and others
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2013, 09:04:17 pm »
Quote from: hlewagastir;127266
What was going on in the North Lands? Or are you hinting to movements in Iceland or England

 
Yes, as far as the revival of the folk ways.

Asatru with Svenbjorn Beinteinsson in Iceland, Odinic Rite in England with Odinism and later Steve McNallen in America.  Even the Australians had a go at it with Alexander Rud Mills.
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Few questions about Asatru and others
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2013, 10:25:59 pm »
Quote from: Crohm;127372
To clarify.. folk centric, means those of my fellow northern european ancestry.  I can tolerate all the different viewpoints I see here without being mean or cruel to them.  I do not foment hate or racial epitaphs.  However, I will stand for the beliefs of my people and those of my line, to the present day of my children who are heathens in the making.

If you wish to be Asatru, they are more open to universalism.  Odinism, as its rebirth has it and has since the 70s is a path for those of northern european ancestry.  Just as the Red Road is for indians, Shinto for Japanese or Judaism for Jews.

I have no interest in having a dispute if my beliefs offend you, as I do not wish drama.  There was an opinion asked and as I have some experience in the matter, of some sixteen years now, I spoke up.

I wish you well, Hyacinth Belle, and peace.

Red road for Indians. I see.
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Re: Few questions about Asatru and others
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2013, 10:51:17 pm »
Quote from: Sage;127388
Red road for Indians. I see.

 
I've never heard Hinduism referred to as the "Red Road" before...:whis:
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Sola Stone

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Re: Few questions about Asatru and others
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2013, 11:47:43 pm »
Quote from: Crohm;127372
To clarify.. folk centric, means those of my fellow northern european ancestry.  I can tolerate all the different viewpoints I see here without being mean or cruel to them.  I do not foment hate or racial epitaphs.  However, I will stand for the beliefs of my people and those of my line, to the present day of my children who are heathens in the making.

If you wish to be Asatru, they are more open to universalism.  Odinism, as its rebirth has it and has since the 70s is a path for those of northern european ancestry.  Just as the Red Road is for indians, Shinto for Japanese or Judaism for Jews.

I have no interest in having a dispute if my beliefs offend you, as I do not wish drama.  There was an opinion asked and as I have some experience in the matter, of some sixteen years now, I spoke up.

I wish you well, Hyacinth Belle, and peace.

 
Look, if you and others like you, want to be folkish, fine. I won't argue with your views, as I feel that would be a waste of time. I will, however, say that some of the things you have said are misleading. For example:

Quote from: Crohm;127221
I may be the odd man out, but Asatru and Odinism in particular are folk centric.


And:
 
Quote from: Crohm;127372
If you wish to be Asatru, they are more open to universalism.


You seem to be implying that universalism is unusual in Asatru, and that is simply not the case.

Also, this:
Quote
Odinism, as its rebirth has it and has since the 70s is a path for those of northern european ancestry.  Just as the Red Road is for indians, Shinto for Japanese or Judaism for Jews.


Like I said, I'm not going to argue with your belief that certain people shouldn't practice Odinism. I will, however, argue with your belief that you get to tell other people what they should practice. That is a personal decision and, thus, none of your business unless some asks for your opinion. But since you are so opinionated on the matter, why don't you tell me what you think I, as someone with a mixed racial background, should practice? Half of my ancestors were European, but the other half were Mexican. What do you think? Is the Heathen path "for" me or does my Mexican blood taint me too much?
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Nyktipolos

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Re: Few questions about Asatru and others
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2013, 12:52:32 am »
Quote from: Sage;127388
Red road for Indians. I see.

It's an actual term used, but it's very ... infrequent? Not necessarily unpopular, but I've only ever heard it used once or twice (usually in titles for books; I did a little research on a couple of them and the authors seemed legit, rather than white people trying to cash in on faux-Native New Age trends, but not much else I could find out). But honestly, in any way I've seen it used, it's not very analogous to Asatru or Odinism? I'm still trying to parse out why that is, but I mean ... the big issue with saying "Red Road for Indians" is that it completely dismisses the fact that each nation had it's own cultures, traditions, mythologies and folklores, even language differences! It's an incredible act of erasure that seeks to say "only this large group of people can do this and associate with this", and completely ignores the idea of "there are many groups in that large group of people who have their own traditions and don't need you to speak for them, thanks".

I kind of feel the same for these claims of "You must have Northern European ancestry in you to practice this religion"; there were MANY tribes in the region, which had their own differences, and while we lost a lot of the nuances, to say "they're all the same" I think is just as dismissive (even if people who are coded as white have more societal privilege here than people coded as Native).
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 12:53:47 am by Nyktipolos »
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Crohm

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Re: Few questions about Asatru and others
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2013, 10:21:47 am »
Quote from: Sola Stone;127394
Half of my ancestors were European, but the other half were Mexican. What do you think? Is the Heathen path "for" me or does my Mexican blood taint me too much?

 
There was an opinion asked, not of my specifically, but of the poster to the general audience.  Thus, I responded.

Secondly, I *do* get to tell people who are or are not Odinists because it is a specific path with specific characteristics.  That would be like saying, 'how dare you say that x person can not be Christian since they deny the deity of Christ.' as that is a central doctrine of their faith.

Asatruar, Vanatruar and the loosely termed Wiccatru are among the variants for those who want a different path to follow that does not fall in line with the older reconstruction of Odinist thought.  Asatru, as I mentioned is the more open minded to universalists, which is to say, those who may be of mixed race or non caucasian abstraction.

This question, about mixed race issues, has come up many times and you would think there was not an answer to it, but there is. :)  I am sorry to hear of the tone of your voice, with the terms 'taint' and how you must feel by the treatment of others.  For that, I can not begin to imagine it, but I can at the least sympathize with your pain.

What is said in those cases, is for the person to find which aspect of their race calls to them most and to go with that.  Or, if they feel equally drawn to celebrate both aspects.  I would not think it would be that difficult a question, my friend.  Another of the reasons Asatru in America and other forms have come forward to accomodate.

As for the Red Road, I live near a Creek Indian reservation.  That was what it was called to me by indians.  I respected them enough to use their term for it.  As a broad inclusive term for all the nations.  If there is an issue there, it is with them not me.  As for their inclusiveness, they are more strict than Odinists.  Openly calling indians that intermixed with whites 'half breeds'.  I do not agree with the disparaging terms, but such is the way of some things.

As for Judaism, go to a Rabbi and tell him if you are black or mexican and want to convert and marry a Jewish girl.  You will be denied.  Call it what you will, but that is their tradition.

My elders and myself have tirelessly spoken out that we hate no one.  We are more than happy to hold interfaith dialogues and work towards mutual racial harmony in our cities.  The most racial we have met, are those on the other side of the table.  I seek no argument or issue, but I would say that the hospitality of the site is lacking when I do speak up on such matters.

If I can be tolerant and wish all good will and hope in their search for what speaks best to their soul, I fail to see how the same can not be returned in good natured fellowship to me.

Ah well.  I wish all well, all the same.
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Aiwelin

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Re: Few questions about Asatru and others
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2013, 10:56:36 am »
Quote from: Crohm;127440
As for Judaism, go to a Rabbi and tell him if you are black or mexican and want to convert and marry a Jewish girl.  You will be denied.  Call it what you will, but that is their tradition.

 
This is not true, and I wish people would stop saying it.  Maybe in ultra-orthodox practice, but even then I'm not sure.  A friend of mine is of African descent, and did marry a Jewish woman and converted to Judaism; it was a long, hard road to meet the approval of the local Rabbi, but he was eventually allowed to convert.  Most Jews acknowledge that people outside their genetic heritage can also hear the call of God.
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Re: Few questions about Asatru and others
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2013, 11:07:16 am »
Quote from: Aiwelin;127444
This is not true, and I wish people would stop saying it.  Maybe in ultra-orthodox practice, but even then I'm not sure.  A friend of mine is of African descent, and did marry a Jewish woman and converted to Judaism; it was a long, hard road to meet the approval of the local Rabbi, but he was eventually allowed to convert.  Most Jews acknowledge that people outside their genetic heritage can also hear the call of God.

 
Not to mention the large-ish number of Ethiopian Jews that exist - they form a sizeable minority in Israel. And the Arabic Jews (a good friend of mine is a Persian Jew). The idea of Jews all being homogenous is stereotypical, not reality.
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Re: Few questions about Asatru and others
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2013, 11:09:47 am »
Quote from: Crohm;127440
As for Judaism, go to a Rabbi and tell him if you are black or mexican and want to convert and marry a Jewish girl.  You will be denied.  Call it what you will, but that is their tradition.

 
Generally speaking, lying about other religions does not go over well here.
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Crohm

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Re: Few questions about Asatru and others
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2013, 11:38:07 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;127447
Generally speaking, lying about other religions does not go over well here.

 
I do not go off stereotypes.  I go off personal experience.  That is all I can speak of.  Most I have spoken with, have in fact been orthodox Jews.  If others wish to consider Reformed or others, that is their experience.  

Personally, it is getting old and repetitive the amount of disdain I am being treated with in almost all my posts.

As for you, calling me a liar, that is just low class and beneath your dignity I am sure.

If I mistaken, as you would like to tell me I am over the general status of Jewry, then so be it.  I can accept that.  However, making snarky remarks is uncalled for.
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Crohm

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Re: Few questions about Asatru and others
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2013, 11:45:22 am »
Quote from: Aiwelin;127444
This is not true, and I wish people would stop saying it.  Maybe in ultra-orthodox practice, but even then I'm not sure.  A friend of mine is of African descent, and did marry a Jewish woman and converted to Judaism; it was a long, hard road to meet the approval of the local Rabbi, but he was eventually allowed to convert.  Most Jews acknowledge that people outside their genetic heritage can also hear the call of God.

 
The cases I have seen, were not 'ultra orthodox'.  It was orthodox, period.  I have had the blessing of being involved with many interfaith dialogues and not one rabbi I met said he would approve of a non jew marrying a jewish woman.  Without exception.  I trust, that they speak for their faith.  

Secondly, it was a secondary point I made for comparison sake.  I would prefer if others would take the whole of my responses, so we could have a better dialogue.  Or, as I said in another post, if I am being misunderstood.. ask and I will clarify.  This jumping on me in posts is simply inhospitable.  

I remain, however, polite despite that and wish to see more conversations had. :)
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Crohm

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Re: Few questions about Asatru and others
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2013, 12:04:46 pm »
Quote from: Crohm;127455
The cases I have seen, were not 'ultra orthodox'.  It was orthodox, period.  I have had the blessing of being involved with many interfaith dialogues and not one rabbi I met said he would approve of a non jew marrying a jewish woman.  Without exception.  I trust, that they speak for their faith.  

 
I do see how it can come across that I was making a sweeping generalization.  For that I can apologize, for it would seem to have offended some on account of friends.  I did wish to see that aspect of my post seen to.

The rest of my post stands.
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Aiwelin

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Re: Few questions about Asatru and others
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2013, 12:31:48 pm »
Quote from: Crohm;127458
I do see how it can come across that I was making a sweeping generalization.  For that I can apologize, for it would seem to have offended some on account of friends.  I did wish to see that aspect of my post seen to.

The rest of my post stands.

 
I do appreciate the apology.  I posted to correct inaccurate information, not in an attempt to jump on you - I just get annoyed when people say that, because in my experience, it is largely untrue.  (The couple I talked about is orthodox, btw).

Science has now told us that what we call 'race' is very much a human construct (there's an excellent paper on it here) and has little to no scientific basis.  History tells us that Northern European peoples - the Germanic peoples of the Viking Age, especially - cared very little for 'race', often warring with or raiding other Germanic or Northern European peoples; and often carrying back the deities of other tribes as spoils of war.  They were fiercely loyal to their tribe, but do not seem to have been so loyal to their tribal deities - the reason Christianity was able to sweep Europe is because, in the beginning, it was mostly unopposed by polytheistic peoples who were largely happy to set (their interptetation of) Christ up next to their own deities.  Mythology shows that the Gods were open to those of another 'race' joining with the deities - just look at Skadi, or how many of the Gods have Giant parentage.

So if folkish-ness is not based on science, mythology, or religious history, what are we left with?  A bigoted belief that has no basis and has outlived its time.
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Re: Few questions about Asatru and others
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2013, 02:09:21 pm »
Quote from: Crohm;127372
To clarify.. folk centric, means those of my fellow northern european ancestry.


I’m going to disagree with you on this point for one main reason.

Community-centered religions need to have some sort of formalized, recognized communal group from which the organization of religious obligations can emerge from. This can be a large community (like the Japanese and Shintoism) or a smaller one (for example Blackfoot religion), but there needs to be some combination of group awareness/organization and a link between that and a groups religious traditions. There has never been a “Northern European” nation, kingdom, tribe, modern state, etc. The network of alliances with Gods/Wights/Ancestors was NEVER built or maintained by “Northern Europeans” as a whole. It was ALWAYS on a much smaller scale.

Similarly, there is no “African Religion” or “Native American Religion” because there has never been an organized state/tribe/kingdom, etc. claiming to represent all “Africans” or “Native Americans”. There is a Yoruba religion, a Blackfoot religion, etc. However, there is a Japanese religion (not an “East Asian religion”) because there is a political organization which links the Japanese and their religious traditions together. There never has been a similar organization on the scale of “Northern Europeans”.

Therefore, any attempt to reforge the bonds with Gods/Wights/Ancestors is going to emerge from a particular individual or community. It is not being done for “Northern Europeans” as a whole. If the family or community within which one is trying to reforge these alliances includes people of non-Northern European ancestry, so be it. I know my own family includes a substantial number of non-Europeans, and they are as much an integral part of the network of relationships that defines me and gives my life meaning as anyone else.

Heathenry is about family/community first. “Northern European” is not a community.
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Re: Few questions about Asatru and others
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2013, 03:01:52 pm »
Quote from: Northpagan;126417
Hi!
I am new member here, i joined becouse i have read this forum a while and i like it very much! Also i have many questions:whis:. I have been intrested about religion all my life and i am very intrested about paganism. I have questions about eclectic Wicca and Paganism. I feel that my way is Asatru, becouse i live in Skandinavia and that feels good to me. My question is, could it possible to be "eclectic pagan" becouse, i like nature and i feel asatru the right way, i have read Edda and other information. But i also intrested other rituals and gods, which maybe not included to Asatru. Is this problem? I have read that in Asatru you can keep altar and do rituals and other, but can i take few things about other pagan religions? Little messy text, i hope that you get the point! And sorry about my bad English! Any information about Asatru and Eclectic Paganism is welcome!


These posts have been a fine welcome to the Heathen path, lol. Let me point you to sacred text web site. http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/ice/index.htm You can read the Eddas and Sagas without any particular paths input. Here is a link to Norse Wicca specifically  http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/wiccan/norsewicca.html. Since your new you may want to ask about Heathenism and you'll get a broader answers and more beginner stuff. And the Heathen section here is good.

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