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Author Topic: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question  (Read 8110 times)

HarpingHawke

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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2014, 11:12:06 am »
Quote from: HarpingHawke;166762
You do realize that The Horned God has different associations, is way younger than Cernunnos, and, unlike our staggy friend, is not Gaulish, right?


I just wanted to clarify what I meant about associations. While on the surface the two gods are very similar, and have similar surface associations (such as the roles of psychopomp and keeper of greenery), that's about as far as I've found the similarity goes. Through a mix of UPG and research, I've realized that The Horned God is one half of a duality, one part of a binary. Cernunnos is about the liminal, the in-between--He does not fit with a binary.

The yearly cycle of the Horned One is not something generally associated with Cernunnos; The Stag is also not a fertility god. He is sometimes associated with wealth, and really, a more true comparison could be drawn with Mercury than with The Horned God.

As well as this, the Gundestrup Cauldron is not the only source depicting Cernunnos, and when I can access it, I will find you an article that puts His depictions in a way that is better than I could, myself.

When we talk about greenery and nature, IMO Cernunnos is of the woods because they are a liminal space, a changing and evolving space, where things are growing and dying all the time. The Horned One's associations with the woods is unclear to me--maybe you can clarify that?

Final thing: quoting the Wikipedia page about The Horned God, "Doreen Valiente, a former High Priestess of the Gardnerian tradition, claimed that Gerald Gardner's Bricket Wood coven referred to the god as Cernunnos, or Kernunno, which is a Latin word, discovered on a stone carving found in France, meaning "the Horned One". Valiente claimed that the coven also referred to the god as Janicot (pronounced Jan-e-co)[needs IPA], which she theorised was of Basque origin, and Gardner also used this name in his novel High Magic's Aid.[15]:52–53"

Once again--Cernunnos does mean Horned One, so Gardner would have the right to refer to The Horned God as such. But does that mean they are the same? Not one bit.

At least if we look at this from a hard polytheist perspective. If soft polytheism comes into play, then it's an entirely different matter.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 11:19:10 am by HarpingHawke »
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Valeria Crowe

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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2014, 11:32:42 am »
Quote from: HarpingHawke;166762

The comparison of Cernunnos to Pan or Baphomet or Satan has never really seemed applicable to me--The Stag has antlers. The others have horns. (Also, it seems a bit like your comment marginalizes Satanists, but if I read that wrong then I apologize).

And yeah, what Darkhawk said.

 
Wouldn't say marginalizes.

Missing the fact that the Wiccan imagery suerounding the Horned God is, in part, a paganization ( or repaganization, depending on belief) of medieval Satanic imagery, as are several other bits of Wiccan symbology, such as the use of the words sabbat and coven; sure.

Er, the point being that he might be missing the fact that all of those gods he named are an influence, and he's only extending the influence back the other way for Cernunnos, but that's not marginalizing Satanists in particular...

Am I making sense? My heada full of stuffing right now.

Sorry, pedant rant!
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HarpingHawke

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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2014, 11:37:47 am »
Quote from: Cuthwin Crowe;166797
Wouldn't say marginalizes.

Missing the fact that the Wiccan imagery suerounding the Horned God is, in part, a paganization ( or repaganization, depending on belief) of medieval Satanic imagery, as are several other bits of Wiccan symbology, such as the use of the words sabbat and coven; sure.

Er, the point being that he might be missing the fact that all of those gods he named are an influence, and he's only extending the influence back the other way for Cernunnos, but that's not marginalizing Satanists in particular...

Am I making sense? My heada full of stuffing right now.

Sorry, pedant rant!


No, you're making sense.

Thanks for setting that straight. I was actually kinda waiting for you to reply, since you're a pretty knowledgeable dude when it comes to this stuff.
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Valeria Crowe

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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2014, 11:42:37 am »
Quote from: HarpingHawke;166798
No, you're making sense.

Thanks for setting that straight. I was actually kinda waiting for you to reply, since you're a pretty knowledgeable dude when it comes to this stuff.

 
Well, ah ahm flattered, mah dear. Lawks alive!
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HarpingHawke

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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2014, 12:17:18 pm »
Quote from: Cuthwin Crowe;166799
Well, ah ahm flattered, mah dear. Lawks alive!

 
You ah very welcome, dahling.
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SunflowerP

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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2014, 05:10:39 pm »
Quote from: HarpingHawke;166762
The figure on the Gundestrup Cauldron is Cernunnos.

I don't know that I'd go that far; the association is speculative, based on similarities to the figure labelled 'Cernunnos' on the Pillar of the Boatmen. The use of 'Cernunnos' in archaeological contexts seems to be more a term of convenience to refer to a type of deity or depiction, not a firm statement that all such depictions are known to have been of the same deity.

ETA: To tie that in to the OP, pagans encountering archaeological use of the former, but assuming the latter, is a fine example of the sort of things reconstructionism was a pushback against.

Sunflower
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 05:15:05 pm by SunflowerP »
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HarpingHawke

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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2014, 12:28:27 am »
Quote from: SunflowerP;166818
I don't know that I'd go that far; the association is speculative, based on similarities to the figure labelled 'Cernunnos' on the Pillar of the Boatmen. The use of 'Cernunnos' in archaeological contexts seems to be more a term of convenience to refer to a type of deity or depiction, not a firm statement that all such depictions are known to have been of the same deity.



Sunflower


:ashamed: Yeah...That's right. I tend to forget to include specifics when I'm annoyed. Thanks for adding that.

While I'm here, I might as well do some linking.

General picking-apart of the Reims stela, which I tend to agree with.


Something with a resource on the Gundestrup Cauldron.
Technically it's a link to the wiki page, but there's something of a disclaimer on it that correlates with what Sunflower said and it generally holds to be true.

And Cernunnos and the Forest, which is something that matches up with my UPG and thus could be considered SPG.
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SunflowerP

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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2014, 09:01:32 pm »
Quote from: HarpingHawke;166847
While I'm here, I might as well do some linking.

 
Interesting, and some of it matches some UPG I've had.

(Peripheral nitpick: those sites make the same mistake about Wicca that Daecon did: basically, assuming that exoteric BTW usage and/or Eclectic/NeoWicca usage, accurately reflect actual, esoteric/oathbound BTW usage.)

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HarpingHawke

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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #53 on: December 06, 2014, 09:52:18 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;166904
(Peripheral nitpick: those sites make the same mistake about Wicca that Daecon did: basically, assuming that exoteric BTW usage and/or Eclectic/NeoWicca usage, accurately reflect actual, esoteric/oathbound BTW usage.)

Sunflower

**squints**

Oh yeah! I never noticed that, but yep. I see it now.

A lot of people seem to make that mistake. I wonder why.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 09:53:09 pm by HarpingHawke »
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Valeria Crowe

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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #54 on: December 06, 2014, 10:02:55 pm »
Quote from: HarpingHawke;166905
**squints**

Oh yeah! I never noticed that, but yep. I see it now.

A lot of people seem to make that mistake. I wonder why.

 
Because they both call themselves Wicca, and its not a clear distinction to the casual observer.

Unless I'm failing at sarcasm detection.
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HarpingHawke

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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #55 on: December 06, 2014, 10:32:03 pm »
Quote from: Cuthwin Crowe;166906
Because they both call themselves Wicca, and its not a clear distinction to the casual observer.

Unless I'm failing at sarcasm detection.

 
Nah, you're not. That makes sense.
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SunflowerP

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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #56 on: December 06, 2014, 11:37:56 pm »
Quote from: Cuthwin Crowe;166906
Because they both call themselves Wicca, and its not a clear distinction to the casual observer.

Unless I'm failing at sarcasm detection.

 
'Both' or 'all', depending how one counts, but yeah (Eclectic Wicca and NeoWicca aren't the same thing, either - EW correlates roughly to the second and third clusters, and NW to the fourth cluster, in Jenett's breakdown of the different ways the word it used).

Another factor (and this would be the place where sarcasm would come into it, if I'd been the one saying it instead of HarpingHawke) is people being so casual in their observations that they fail to consider whether someone who's a member of an oathbound tradition and writing about that tradition might use circumlocutions, substitutions, and such, rather than reveal oathbound material. BTWiccan references to Cernunnos are less, 'hey, this is the name of our god,' and more term-of convenience, very like the archaeological usage I cited above, and almost certainly drawn from archaeological usage.

Nothing wrong with being a casual observer, but the casual observer can easily make an ass of themselves if they editorialize without going beyond casual observation.

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