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Author Topic: Druidry vs Celtic Recon? What am I possibly?  (Read 4788 times)

Maponos

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Re: Druidry vs Celtic Recon? What am I possibly?
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2014, 03:50:41 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;162006
Wait.  THE older faith?  as in, ONE?

Seems to me there's absolutely no proof at all that there ever was such a thing.

Not all animisms are created equal, after all.


I use the term very loosely to describe the indigenous practices of the various cultures all over the world. If you study them, you will find that every religion started out animistically.

Maponos

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Re: Druidry vs Celtic Recon? What am I possibly?
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2014, 03:53:32 pm »
Quote from: Naomi J;162001
This is extremely dismissive of modern Druidry of various kinds. I wouldn't call either of my Druid traditions 'roleplaying'. And everyone in both of my Druid orders knows enough of the history of modern Druidry to understand that we're not working with an unbroken lineage from the ancient Druids. We're perfectly well-informed about where our tradition comes from. Which is actually quite a long way back, in the case of romantic Druidry. Further back than most neopagan movements actually.

 
How does one call oneself a druid when there is basically no surviving information on druids, especially from the druids' point of view?

HeartShadow

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Re: Druidry vs Celtic Recon? What am I possibly?
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2014, 03:58:06 pm »
Quote from: Maponos;162010
I use the term very loosely to describe the indigenous practices of the various cultures all over the world. If you study them, you will find that every religion started out animistically.

 
Actually, the only place I've seen that stated is Frazier and derivatives, and he wrote with the agenda of proving that humanity's religions evolved to Christianity as the goal-point.  With a side of /other people/ being used for /history/ because the farther you were from Western European the more barbaric you were.

I'd be interested in a source for that that doesn't drive from Frazier.

Naomi J

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Re: Druidry vs Celtic Recon? What am I possibly?
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2014, 03:59:06 pm »
Quote from: Maponos;162011
How does one call oneself a druid when there is basically no surviving information on druids, especially from the druids' point of view?

 
By adding the prefix 'neo-'.

We have an old and interesting tradition. It dates all the way back to the 18th Century. We don't claim to know anything about the 'original' druids, only to be inspired by them.

And yes, we do know that they may have engaged in living sacrifices.
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NightQueen

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Re: Druidry vs Celtic Recon? What am I possibly?
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2014, 04:35:45 pm »
Quote from: Maponos;162000
Well, for one: there is no actual Druidry today. Druidism is lost to the mists of time, unfortunately. Most people today take the romantic idea of the Druid and basically kind of roleplay one. The people who do that would probably not be comfortable with what the Druids of the past actually did (ritual sacrifice of humans and animals, etc).

Also, to call a religion based on Celtic mythology 'Druidism' would be like calling Christianity 'Popism' or 'Priestism'.

Aside from the people playing Druid today, Celtic polytheism is basically what it says on the box- worshipping the various Celtic deities.

 
Thousands of people across the world would disagree with you about there being no Druidry today.

Beyond being dismissive as Naomi J said, I find really kind of offensive to that you are implying a spirituality I practice is simply "roleplay," to be quite frank.  No, we cannot know what exactly historical Druids practiced, but revival Druidry is not meant to be reconstructionist.  That doesn't mean we can't use what we do know about historical Druids as part of a framework for a modern religion or spirituality.  Is Wicca a less valid religion because it's relatively young?  

And I am not "uncomfortable" with what historical Druids practiced such as ritual sacrifice, so much as I realize it is not appropriate for a modern world.

Wren

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Re: Druidry vs Celtic Recon? What am I possibly?
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2014, 04:39:13 pm »
Quote from: Maponos;162000
That would be disrespectful to the Celtic traditions, if not done carefully. Look at how Shinto and Buddhism interacted and coexisted in Japan. They're still different and have their own beliefs but haven't truly mixed with each other.

Then you have never been to Japan.  It is quite the contrary!  Syncretism is the norm and is built into the culture.  It has been that way for centuries.  I suggest you google "Shinto and Buddhism."
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Wren

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Re: Druidry vs Celtic Recon? What am I possibly?
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2014, 04:45:38 pm »
Quote from: Maponos;162000
Well, for one: there is no actual Druidry today. Druidism is lost to the mists of time, unfortunately. Most people today take the romantic idea of the Druid and basically kind of roleplay one. The people who do that would probably not be comfortable with what the Druids of the past actually did (ritual sacrifice of humans and animals, etc).

....

Aside from the people playing Druid today, Celtic polytheism is basically what it says on the box- worshipping the various Celtic deities.

 
You know, I was going to ignore this remark since others have already pointed it out, but I find this incredibly insulting.  In addition to looking up syncretism, perhaps you should also do some actual research on neo-druidry, as it is very much a living, breathing religion that many of us here take seriously.  We most certainly are not "playing" Druid.  ADF has a wonderful page with a breakdown of the beliefs.  Granted, this cannot possibly speak for everyone that practices neo-druidry, but it certainly is a start.
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Redfaery

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Re: Druidry vs Celtic Recon? What am I possibly?
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2014, 04:54:46 pm »
Quote from: Maponos;162000
Look at how Shinto and Buddhism interacted and coexisted in Japan. They're still different and have their own beliefs but haven't truly mixed with each other.

I go a step further than Wren. I call Bullshit. You do realize that Buddhism and Shinto were forcibly separated in the Meiji era, right?

You've heard of the Shichi Fukujin, right? They're kami. Have Shinto Shrines. Did you realize that 2 of them are Daoist in origin, and 4 are based on Buddhist devas? Only one is a native Japanese figure.
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Maponos

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Re: Druidry vs Celtic Recon? What am I possibly?
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2014, 06:16:20 pm »
Quote from: Wren;162022
Then you have never been to Japan.  It is quite the contrary!  Syncretism is the norm and is built into the culture.  It has been that way for centuries.  I suggest you google "Shinto and Buddhism."


Actually, I have quite a few Japanese friends and some of them are devout Shinto followers (if that could be said). The Japanese terms for Shinto and Buddhism clearly define how they are different.

仏教 (Bukkyō), meaning 'way of the Buddha' and 神道 (Shinto (kami-no-michi)), meaning 'way of the gods/kami'.

It's kind of difficult to express in a Western sense, but it's just this thing that you understand.
 
Quote from: Wren;162023
You know, I was going to ignore this remark since others have already pointed it out, but I find this incredibly insulting.  In addition to looking up syncretism, perhaps you should also do some actual research on neo-druidry, as it is very much a living, breathing religion that many of us here take seriously.  We most certainly are not "playing" Druid.  ADF has a wonderful page with a breakdown of the beliefs.  Granted, this cannot possibly speak for everyone that practices neo-druidry, but it certainly is a start.


Practice what you will, but I believe the real druids are long gone.
 
Quote from: Redfaery;162025
I go a step further than Wren. I call Bullshit. You do realize that Buddhism and Shinto were forcibly separated in the Meiji era, right?


That wasn't due to any religious feuds. That was entirely political.

Quote
You've heard of the Shichi Fukujin, right? They're kami. Have Shinto Shrines. Did you realize that 2 of them are Daoist in origin, and 4 are based on Buddhist devas? Only one is a native Japanese figure.

 
Yes, and there are Japanese people who do not worship/pray to them because they are not Japanese. There are various sects of Shinto that espouse a pure Shinto ideal (Shinto without foreign influences).

Wren

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Re: Druidry vs Celtic Recon? What am I possibly?
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2014, 06:58:50 pm »
Quote from: Maponos;162032
Actually, I have quite a few Japanese friends and some of them are devout Shinto followers (if that could be said). The Japanese terms for Shinto and Buddhism clearly define how they are different.

仏教 (Bukkyō), meaning 'way of the Buddha' and 神道 (Shinto (kami-no-michi)), meaning 'way of the gods/kami'.

It's kind of difficult to express in a Western sense, but it's just this thing that you understand.


Did I say they were the same?  I said they were syncretized.

Japanese-American here, so please do not tell me what I understand.  I am aware of what the two terms mean, yet I do not see what you are trying to prove by copying and pasting their definitions.  But okay, I'll humor you.  First, kami are not synonymous with gods.  Spirit might be more closer, but we really don't have an accurate term for them in the English language.  Ever heard of honji suijaku?  It's the theory that buddhas may appear as kami.

Shinto does not have dogma, a supreme kami, or anything of the like.  It is a collection of rituals and places emphasis on "purity."  It is essentially a practice.   Despite the label of "religion" being slapped on it, it is more closely tied with the culture of Japan.  Even Christians may engage in Shinto rituals and not consider it defying their religion.  The Japanese will not think twice about having a Shinto ceremony when their child is born, said child having Christian wedding, and a Buddhist funeral.  Buddhist temples may have Shinto elements, and vice versa.  As I said, they are syncretized.


Quote from: Maponos;162032

Practice what you will, but I believe the real druids are long gone.


I think what's happening here is that you are conflating the term "druid"-- members of a certain class among the Celts-- with today's "neo-Druidry."  We are not saying that they are the same thing.
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HeartShadow

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Re: Druidry vs Celtic Recon? What am I possibly?
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2014, 07:03:59 pm »
Quote from: Maponos;162032

 
Yes, and there are Japanese people who do not worship/pray to them because they are not Japanese. There are various sects of Shinto that espouse a pure Shinto ideal (Shinto without foreign influences).

 
That there are purists does not mean people that follow a combined path mysteriously ceased to exist.  That you want them separate does not mean they do not mingle.

You seem to have a theme about *the way it was*.  And yet, you are using the internet, on a computer, talking to people you've never met face to face ... How can you old to *old ways being pure* and use modern technology they never had?  If you want to live by the old ways, that's a fire and a cave.  Not computer and internet.

Religions change, adapt .. people take the bits and pieces that work, and leave behind that which doesn't ... either modern life works or it doesn't, but you can't claim modern religion is wrong but the tech is good.  If it's old ways or nothing - why be online?

Maponos

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Re: Druidry vs Celtic Recon? What am I possibly?
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2014, 07:10:02 pm »
Quote from: Wren;162037
Did I say they were the same?  I said they were syncretized.


You were implying they became the same.

Quote
Japanese-American here, so please do not tell me what I understand.


That does not mean you automatically understand Shinto.

Quote
I am aware of what the two terms mean, yet I do not see what you are trying to prove by copying and pasting their definitions.


I actually know them because I like to study Shinto as I find it quite fascinating.

Quote
But okay, I'll humor you.  First, kami are not synonymous with gods.  Spirit might be more closer, but we really don't have an accurate term for them in the English language.


Of course. Kami is a very proud term that encompasses a lot of spiritual beings. I think it's okay to refer to them as deities, though, because they were all given a measure of respect and reverence. In European mythology, folklorists used to refer to some spirits as divinities (who are now often called 'faeries').

Quote
Ever heard of honji suijaku?  It's the theory that buddhas may appear as kami.


Yes, but in theory they aren't really kami though.

Quote
Shinto does not have dogma, a supreme kami, or anything of the like.


Indeed.

Quote
It is a collection of rituals and places emphasis on "purity."  It is essentially a practice.   Despite the label of "religion" being slapped on it, it is more closely tied with the culture of Japan.  Even Christians may engage in Shinto rituals and not consider it defying their religion.  The Japanese will not think twice about having a Shinto ceremony when their child is born, said child having Christian wedding, and a Buddhist funeral.  Buddhist temples may have Shinto elements, and vice versa.  As I said, they are syncretized.


I don't know why you're telling me all this; I already know it and I don't quite see how it relates to what I've said. I said that Shinto and Buddhism are different but coexisted, I never said they didn't have syncretic elements to them.


Quote
I think what's happening here is that you are conflating the term "druid"-- members of a certain class among the Celts-- with today's "neo-Druidry."  We are not saying that they are the same thing.


If a cat isn't a duck, then why call it a duck?

NightQueen

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Re: Druidry vs Celtic Recon? What am I possibly?
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2014, 07:10:26 pm »
Quote from: Maponos;162032

 Practice what you will, but I believe the real druids are long gone.


Define "real"?  If you mean a historical Druid, then yes you are correct, they are long gone.  But just because it is a neo-pagan movement does not make it any less real than reconstruction movements.  Revival Druids don't claim that they are based on "real" historical Druid practices, but that doesn't make it a less valid movement.  I really think you might want to actually research what revival Druidry is and what it is not before making pronouncements about it.

Do you have any idea how offensive it is to say that someone's spirituality or religion is not real or is just them playing dress up?

Maponos

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Re: Druidry vs Celtic Recon? What am I possibly?
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2014, 07:15:08 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;162040
That there are purists does not mean people that follow a combined path mysteriously ceased to exist.  That you want them separate does not mean they do not mingle.


I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

Quote
You seem to have a theme about *the way it was*.  And yet, you are using the internet, on a computer, talking to people you've never met face to face ... How can you old to *old ways being pure* and use modern technology they never had?  If you want to live by the old ways, that's a fire and a cave.  Not computer and internet.


Following an older way does not mean giving up technology. Faith does not exist in a vacuum. If it did, we'd still be living in caves.

Quote
Religions change, adapt .. people take the bits and pieces that work, and leave behind that which doesn't ... either modern life works or it doesn't, but you can't claim modern religion is wrong but the tech is good.  If it's old ways or nothing - why be online?

 
What does technology have to do with religion/faith?

Wren

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Re: Druidry vs Celtic Recon? What am I possibly?
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2014, 07:25:42 pm »
Quote from: Maponos;162041
You were implying they became the same.

Then reread my post.


Quote from: Maponos;162041
That does not mean you automatically understand Shinto.

No, but having grown up around it and having Shinto and Buddhism integrated into my household from an early age does give me perspective.


Quote from: Maponos;162041
Yes, but in theory they aren't really kami though.

Then I suppose they must have been mistakenly enshrined.  


Quote from: Maponos;162041

I don't know why you're telling me all this; I already know it and I don't quite see how it relates to what I've said. I said that Shinto and Buddhism are different but coexisted, I never said they didn't have syncretic elements to them.


No, but you said "they truly haven't mixed with each other," and I was providing examples to the contrary.


Quote from: Maponos;162041

If a cat isn't a duck, then why call it a duck?

It is referred to as neo-druidry.  Neo.
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