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Author Topic: Druidry: Belonging in Paganism - Friendly Advice Sought  (Read 674 times)

Nymree

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Belonging in Paganism - Friendly Advice Sought
« on: October 10, 2019, 03:49:41 pm »
Hi all,

It feels odd posting in the Beginners board, as I've been Pagan for almost three years now (though, given the journey in total, I suppose that's almost nothing). But this concern has brought me back to a beginning of sorts, and it's been troubling me enough that I felt like I should discuss it somewhere.

Over the last few years I've explored a lot of Paganism and finally feel comfortable focusing in on Druidry, especially through OBOD (though I'm still very new in this). However, as of late I've found myself moving away from the more traditional* ideas that I started with (such as energy, spirits and pantheonic deities) into something ranging from spiritual/philosophical to metaphorical in nature. That's not to say I don't believe in my gods or Spirit anymore, and I definitely believe in them as tangible, real forces in my life. But I've felt myself moving away from crystals or high ritual practice, and more into meditations or long religious walks and prayers.

 * I'm aware that using the word "traditional" has its problems. I only mean the trends I noticed in the Paganism I was first introduced to starting out (partly, Wicca, witchcraft practice, English folk traditions, and polytheism - identifying my practice as eclectic.).

The main reason I find this difficult to process is that it constrasts with the beliefs of the pagans in my friendship/moot group, who have more literal, folkloric tendencies (which I respect, and enjoy too, though my personal beliefs seem to be shifting.) While variety is to be expected (and celebrated) in most moot groups, I feel very self-conscious and unusual (weird?) being unable to chime in with discussion. I've started to worry that I just don't belong as a pagan anymore (given that I haven't had a proper discussion about this with anyone in my personal life, from fear/doubt mostly, I haven't really anything to contextualise all this in).

I've considered if I should convert to a different religion, but my beliefs and gods are still very much pagan - perhaps, in places, less literal, but with that same core I've developed over the last three years. I have been considering connecting with the Christo-Pagan part of the Druid community, if only to have that conversation (though I'm not looking to debate Christo-Paganism here).

Maybe I've just made too many assumptions up to this point on what Neopaganism is?
Apologies for the splurge. Blessed be.

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Re: Belonging in Paganism - Friendly Advice Sought
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2019, 07:05:06 pm »
Hi all,

It feels odd posting in the Beginners board, as I've been Pagan for almost three years now (though, given the journey in total, I suppose that's almost nothing). But this concern has brought me back to a beginning of sorts, and it's been troubling me enough that I felt like I should discuss it somewhere.

Over the last few years I've explored a lot of Paganism and finally feel comfortable focusing in on Druidry, especially through OBOD (though I'm still very new in this). However, as of late I've found myself moving away from the more traditional* ideas that I started with (such as energy, spirits and pantheonic deities) into something ranging from spiritual/philosophical to metaphorical in nature. That's not to say I don't believe in my gods or Spirit anymore, and I definitely believe in them as tangible, real forces in my life. But I've felt myself moving away from crystals or high ritual practice, and more into meditations or long religious walks and prayers.

 * I'm aware that using the word "traditional" has its problems. I only mean the trends I noticed in the Paganism I was first introduced to starting out (partly, Wicca, witchcraft practice, English folk traditions, and polytheism - identifying my practice as eclectic.).

The main reason I find this difficult to process is that it constrasts with the beliefs of the pagans in my friendship/moot group, who have more literal, folkloric tendencies (which I respect, and enjoy too, though my personal beliefs seem to be shifting.) While variety is to be expected (and celebrated) in most moot groups, I feel very self-conscious and unusual (weird?) being unable to chime in with discussion. I've started to worry that I just don't belong as a pagan anymore (given that I haven't had a proper discussion about this with anyone in my personal life, from fear/doubt mostly, I haven't really anything to contextualise all this in).

I've considered if I should convert to a different religion, but my beliefs and gods are still very much pagan - perhaps, in places, less literal, but with that same core I've developed over the last three years. I have been considering connecting with the Christo-Pagan part of the Druid community, if only to have that conversation (though I'm not looking to debate Christo-Paganism here).

Maybe I've just made too many assumptions up to this point on what Neopaganism is?
Apologies for the splurge. Blessed be.

Hi, Nymree,

You're not alone here at The Cauldron, either as a pagan who views their deities metaphorically or as someone who feels doubts about whether that makes them truly pagan. I'm in the same boat (most recently articulated here)--though I find my doubts about my paganism to be diminishing. A Christian who doesn't take their Bible literally is still a Christian, so why not a pagan?
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

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Re: Belonging in Paganism - Friendly Advice Sought
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2019, 07:55:35 pm »
I've started to worry that I just don't belong as a pagan anymore

Maybe I've just made too many assumptions up to this point on what Neopaganism is?

I'm not much into crystals and ritual either (and I'm also, strictly speaking, agnostic; I think the Gods exist, but there's no way to be sure). Paganism is super broad this way; people in your area may gravitate towards a certain set of practices, but that doesn't make them the ISO Standard of Correct Paganism. No such thing!

And on a more humorous note, you might want to take a look at this old list of reasons people supposedly can't be pagan. You're in good company ;)

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Re: Belonging in Paganism - Friendly Advice Sought
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2019, 11:19:15 am »
The main reason I find this difficult to process is that it constrasts with the beliefs of the pagans in my friendship/moot group, who have more literal, folkloric tendencies (which I respect, and enjoy too, though my personal beliefs seem to be shifting.) While variety is to be expected (and celebrated) in most moot groups, I feel very self-conscious and unusual (weird?) being unable to chime in with discussion. I've started to worry that I just don't belong as a pagan anymore (given that I haven't had a proper discussion about this with anyone in my personal life, from fear/doubt mostly, I haven't really anything to contextualise all this in).

This is one of the reasons that I tend to bang on about how most paganisms are practice-oriented. (And in fact it used to be a commonly stated aphorism that if you get a half-dozen witches - practicing the same tradition! - together you were likely to have at least six, possibly more, ideas about what the gods are in that circle.)

It's really easy to get hung up on belief; so much of the Western world is hung up on belief as a core, essential part of being religious, but belief is a sideline.  What do you do?  Does it accord with the practices of whatever druidic group you affiliate with?  If yes, you belong.  If no, you might still belong, depending on how the match goes. :}

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Maybe I've just made too many assumptions up to this point on what Neopaganism is?

Lots and lots of people carry baggage that trips them up like this, it's okay.
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Jenett

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Re: Belonging in Paganism - Friendly Advice Sought
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2019, 12:31:50 pm »
It's really easy to get hung up on belief; so much of the Western world is hung up on belief as a core, essential part of being religious, but belief is a sideline.  What do you do?  Does it accord with the practices of whatever druidic group you affiliate with?  If yes, you belong.  If no, you might still belong, depending on how the match goes. :}

I agree with Darkhawk - unsuprisingly :)

Here's the other thing: for most people, groups and communities are a series of compromises between their own stuff and what the group stuff. For most people, some of those compromises are small and fairly easy (i.e. they're things you might not choose to focus on out of all the options, but you don't have any objections), and sometimes the compromises are harder (there's a big focus on a thing you don't care about, the logistical stuff is a challenge, etc.)

There's also often a lot of compromise for in-person groups, just because there often isn't a lot of Pagan population density (even in quite large towns/cities) to support every possible kind of variation, or where people are up for in person meetings regularly (for all sorts of reasons: transit, accessibility issues, they've got small kids at home, they're super busy, they work retail with unpredictable shifts, etc.) So at a certain point, you end up going "These are the group options available, if I want stuff with other people in person, can I make this thing work." (And as long as the group is okay with your participation, there's usually a fair bit of negotiation possible here.)

But this is why so many groups and often especially those in specific traditions (i.e. the places where you'd think there'd be the most syncing up...) have a big emphasis on "The group is not and should not be your own practice. You should be doing stuff on your own that feeds your life, whether or not it fits in with the group." Sometimes that's working with specific deities or pantheons that aren't where the group is focusing. Sometimes it's a different ritual style. Sometimes it's something like you describe, where a deity/pantheon focus is something you're okay being around, but you want something totally different to actually be your focus.

For me, the thing I think about a lot is "What am I hoping to get out of this activity." And "I like these people, and some of the conversations are interesting to me, but some of them leave me out a bit, and that's okay." might in fact be a fine solution.

It would also be okay (especially in something more like a moot/discussion) to say "Hey, I've found my own practices moving in a direction that makes it harder to participate. Could we maybe include some other kinds of topics...." and then suggesting a couple (for example, I bet you could get some interest in ways people meditate or build in reflective time that aren't 'sit down on this cushion', or some discussion about natural seasonal changes and cool stuff in your area related to that, or whatever. Not every meeting, probably, but would you feel better/more included if that happened? Probably.)

I'll also say I know plenty of people, firmly in the large Pagan umbrella, who have similar takes on you. The current group you're hanging out with may or may not be a useful place for you now, but that doesn't mean dumping the whole idea of being Pagan (unless, of course, you want to for other reasons.)
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Re: Belonging in Paganism - Friendly Advice Sought
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2019, 05:45:57 pm »
Hi all,

It feels odd posting in the Beginners board, as I've been Pagan for almost three years now (though, given the journey in total, I suppose that's almost nothing). But this concern has brought me back to a beginning of sorts, and it's been troubling me enough that I felt like I should discuss it somewhere.

Over the last few years I've explored a lot of Paganism and finally feel comfortable focusing in on Druidry, especially through OBOD (though I'm still very new in this). However, as of late I've found myself moving away from the more traditional* ideas that I started with (such as energy, spirits and pantheonic deities) into something ranging from spiritual/philosophical to metaphorical in nature. That's not to say I don't believe in my gods or Spirit anymore, and I definitely believe in them as tangible, real forces in my life. But I've felt myself moving away from crystals or high ritual practice, and more into meditations or long religious walks and prayers.

 * I'm aware that using the word "traditional" has its problems. I only mean the trends I noticed in the Paganism I was first introduced to starting out (partly, Wicca, witchcraft practice, English folk traditions, and polytheism - identifying my practice as eclectic.).

The main reason I find this difficult to process is that it constrasts with the beliefs of the pagans in my friendship/moot group, who have more literal, folkloric tendencies (which I respect, and enjoy too, though my personal beliefs seem to be shifting.) While variety is to be expected (and celebrated) in most moot groups, I feel very self-conscious and unusual (weird?) being unable to chime in with discussion. I've started to worry that I just don't belong as a pagan anymore (given that I haven't had a proper discussion about this with anyone in my personal life, from fear/doubt mostly, I haven't really anything to contextualise all this in).

I've considered if I should convert to a different religion, but my beliefs and gods are still very much pagan - perhaps, in places, less literal, but with that same core I've developed over the last three years. I have been considering connecting with the Christo-Pagan part of the Druid community, if only to have that conversation (though I'm not looking to debate Christo-Paganism here).

Maybe I've just made too many assumptions up to this point on what Neopaganism is?
Apologies for the splurge. Blessed be.

Our local group is made up of a wide range of practices.  From much more ritual oriented neo-Wicca style paganism, with casting circles and setting altars and doing spellwork.  But we also have people who are more simply spiritual, who enjoy chanting and meditating but don't do a lot of spells or rituals.  We have quite a few who grew up with folk remedies and superstitions (like "my grandma taught me to do X when there is a thunderstorm" type of things), and so that type of practice is present as well.

Our group(s) (we actually have two, one for the actual town I live in and one for the larger town about 40 minutes away) work mostly because we accept that we are quite varied in our practices, and that when we do get together for stuff, we encourage people to do what works for them.  When we do group rituals, normally whoever is doing a bit gets to decide how that bit gets done.  I often help lead rituals, so we will explain what the main part is, but we also ask for volunteers to cast circle and call quarters, and sometimes we end up with each of those things being done in a different flavor.  In the end, it works for us.

In social media, we encourage people to bring up topics that interest them...in other words, if you want to see something in the group, post about it (whether you are posting information or asking questions or posting memes...whatever your flavor, add it to the group).  We have one fella that is now sharing a lot of articles on quantum mechanics and really science based metaphysics.

I do think that there is this desire to 'fit in' with the group, and that mainstream Paganism is portrayed as following a certain framework.  Personally I almost never use herbs (or herb related stuff outside of incense....I don't do a lot with oils or tinctures or herbal remedies), and that is huge around me.  If someone asks for advice about a thing, at least 90% of the time, the suggestions will include herbs of some sort.  I also am a Norse inspired, but still neo-Wicca/Pagan heavy witch, so I am in several Heathen groups, but feel very much an outsider there (and still a sense of coming home since they work with the same deities I work with). 

Mostly, my advice (and what I do) when it comes to connecting with and working with groups (whether in person or online) is trust my feelings.  If I feel like a group is a good fit and I feel comfortable with them, then that is great, I participate a lot.  If I feel really out of place (I've joined a few Facebook groups that really were not my kind of Pagans/witches), then I might leave.  If I feel mostly awkward and out of place, I might lurk and only post/share when things really are up my alley (for my local group, this means I just don't go when they do stuff like ghost walks, but I might go to tarot workshops).
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Re: Belonging in Paganism - Friendly Advice Sought
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2019, 11:22:02 am »
The main reason I find this difficult to process is that it constrasts with the beliefs of the pagans in my friendship/moot group, who have more literal, folkloric tendencies (which I respect, and enjoy too, though my personal beliefs seem to be shifting.) While variety is to be expected (and celebrated) in most moot groups, I feel very self-conscious and unusual (weird?) being unable to chime in with discussion. I've started to worry that I just don't belong as a pagan anymore (given that I haven't had a proper discussion about this with anyone in my personal life, from fear/doubt mostly, I haven't really anything to contextualise all this in).

That sounds to me like an issue with compatibility with your friends, not with paganism.  In a spirituality sense; there's plenty of other things like fellowship you're still getting from them. (Which is normal.  Socially I tend to get on with reconstructionists despite our practices being very different).

Quote
I've considered if I should convert to a different religion, but my beliefs and gods are still very much pagan - perhaps, in places, less literal, but with that same core I've developed over the last three years. I have been considering connecting with the Christo-Pagan part of the Druid community, if only to have that conversation (though I'm not looking to debate Christo-Paganism here).

That strikes me as a great idea.  If you aren't able to have the conversations about spirituality you want with your current peer group finding a new one (as an addition, not a replacement) is a good way forward.

In terms of whether you're still a Pagan? Absolutely, if you still feel a kinship with the term. I've known Pagans with way less orthodox beliefs than yours.
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Anon100

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Re: Belonging in Paganism - Friendly Advice Sought
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2019, 02:14:35 pm »
I'm not much into crystals and ritual either (and I'm also, strictly speaking, agnostic; I think the Gods exist, but there's no way to be sure). Paganism is super broad this way; people in your area may gravitate towards a certain set of practices, but that doesn't make them the ISO Standard of Correct Paganism. No such thing!

And on a more humorous note, you might want to take a look at this old list of reasons people supposedly can't be pagan. You're in good company ;)

Wow, that's a brilliant thread Sefiru ( would it be ok to post on it and bring it back to recent posts? ).

On  topic slightly more, nothing you said there sounds unpagan Nymree, just obviously a slightly different path to where you were. Depending on who your friends/moot are I can imagine someone bringing a different perspective as a whole may give them some pleasure and fresh thoughts to mull over. Life's not set in stone so new views are often a great thing.

By the way does anyone have a concrete list of what is Pagan? Can imagine it would have to be quite open ;)

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Re: Belonging in Paganism - Friendly Advice Sought
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2019, 06:24:42 pm »
Wow, that's a brilliant thread Sefiru ( would it be ok to post on it and bring it back to recent posts? ).

I for one would be delighted to see it active again. The gatekeepers of Pagandom are constantly coming up with new wrinkles - and it's interesting to see what old 'not a real pagan' rationalizations remain in play.

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Re: Belonging in Paganism - Friendly Advice Sought
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2019, 06:50:57 pm »
Wow, that's a brilliant thread Sefiru ( would it be ok to post on it and bring it back to recent posts? ).

Go for it  :)

Quote
By the way does anyone have a concrete list of what is Pagan?

I doubt it, since 'pagan' isn't a concrete category anyway. Around here we generally go by self-identification (if someone says they're pagan, they're pagan); anything more specific gets contentious fast.

You might also take a look at Darkhawk's Soupspace chart here.

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Re: Belonging in Paganism - Friendly Advice Sought
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2019, 07:07:06 pm »
You're not alone here at The Cauldron, either as a pagan who views their deities metaphorically or as someone who feels doubts about whether that makes them truly pagan. I'm in the same boat (most recently articulated here)--though I find my doubts about my paganism to be diminishing. A Christian who doesn't take their Bible literally is still a Christian, so why not a pagan?

Very well said, I thought.

Over the last few years I've explored a lot of Paganism and finally feel comfortable focusing in on Druidry, especially through OBOD (though I'm still very new in this). However, as of late I've found myself moving away from the more traditional* ideas that I started with (such as energy, spirits and pantheonic deities) into something ranging from spiritual/philosophical to metaphorical in nature. That's not to say I don't believe in my gods or Spirit anymore, and I definitely believe in them as tangible, real forces in my life. But I've felt myself moving away from crystals or high ritual practice, and more into meditations or long religious walks and prayers.

 * I'm aware that using the word "traditional" has its problems. I only mean the trends I noticed in the Paganism I was first introduced to starting out (partly, Wicca, witchcraft practice, English folk traditions, and polytheism - identifying my practice as eclectic.).

The main reason I find this difficult to process is that it constrasts with the beliefs of the pagans in my friendship/moot group, who have more literal, folkloric tendencies (which I respect, and enjoy too, though my personal beliefs seem to be shifting.) While variety is to be expected (and celebrated) in most moot groups, I feel very self-conscious and unusual (weird?) being unable to chime in with discussion. I've started to worry that I just don't belong as a pagan anymore (given that I haven't had a proper discussion about this with anyone in my personal life, from fear/doubt mostly, I haven't really anything to contextualise all this in).

I'm (verrrry slowwwly) doing NOD, and my Druid-ish path is more spiritual/philosophical than it is pantheistic or polytheistic, too (well, that's possibly an oversimplification, but anyways...)

When I get a minute I'll try and create a thread or two in the Druidry SIG (or, if you feel you'd like to beat me to it then please feel free) - I'd rather like to see that subforum have a bit more activity in it.  Hopefully chat with you there  :)
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