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Author Topic: Are there any pagan paths out there that don't see a problem with casting love....  (Read 2123 times)

PrincessKLS

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Are there any pagan paths out there that don't see a problem with casting love spells on a specific person? I question this, because the witch who taught me this in their youth taught beliefs from both a Wiccan and Chaos Magick path and she was very against casting spells to bend someone's will to love you but she wasn't against doing certain spells to manipulate other situations. It seems to me like this is a big taboo in pagan circles and yes there's always consequential issues but if you are allowed to cast spells for personal gratifying, why not cast a spell to allow someone to fall in love with you?
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Quote from: PrincessKLS;144972
why not cast a spell to allow someone to fall in love with you?

 
Probably because you consent to your own spells, but casting a love spell almost assuredly violates consent. Many people surprisingly find it kind of icky to violate someone's free will.

Let me put it another way: would you slip roofies into someone's drink if they wouldn't otherwise consent to your advances? If not, then why does a magical approach make it any less important to respect someone's bodily autonomy?
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Quote from: PrincessKLS;144972
Are there any pagan paths out there that don't see a problem with casting love spells on a specific person? I question this, because the witch who taught me this in their youth taught beliefs from both a Wiccan and Chaos Magick path and she was very against casting spells to bend someone's will to love you but she wasn't against doing certain spells to manipulate other situations. It seems to me like this is a big taboo in pagan circles and yes there's always consequential issues but if you are allowed to cast spells for personal gratifying, why not cast a spell to allow someone to fall in love with you?

 
It's one that gets people's knickers in a twist because it depends a lot on how you think that magic works, and so it becomes a morality issue.

There are certain magical traditions in which it is not an issue (hoodoo springs to mind at once) but I hesitate to point at a specific religious path and say "yeah, they say it's cool" because in paganism that's difficult to do. It usually winds up coming down to personal ethics rather than broad rules.

As I said at the beginning of my response, it seems to depend on how you think magic works. I've seen about a million discussions on the ethics of love spells on this very forum (you can search for them if you're interested) and it seems they boil down to people who think targeted love spells work like roofies, and people who feel they exert influence in a much more subtle manner. Your friend was probably of the former mindset, and therefore such spells would be morally pretty gross.

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Quote from: PrincessKLS;144972
Are there any pagan paths out there that don't see a problem with casting love spells on a specific person? I question this, because the witch who taught me this in their youth taught beliefs from both a Wiccan and Chaos Magick path and she was very against casting spells to bend someone's will to love you but she wasn't against doing certain spells to manipulate other situations. It seems to me like this is a big taboo in pagan circles and yes there's always consequential issues but if you are allowed to cast spells for personal gratifying, why not cast a spell to allow someone to fall in love with you?

 
As already noted, it depends on what you mean by 'love spell'.

Spells to make a specific person fall in love with you are a) messing with their free will, b) creepy to actively abusive (and why would you want to do that to someone you presumably like?) and c) the people who've done them often have some pretty major "Yeah, that went badly" stories.

(I've heard plenty of stories over the years where love spell turned into "and now I have a stalker" or love spell turned into "Yeah, this is just really not a healthy relationship, but we can't let it go" or any of a half dozen other things. It's not a simple kind of magic to undo even if you want to, because it changes a bunch of othe motivations and choice-points in someone's life.)

Spells to make yourself more open to love or to help you find a loving relationship - the equivalent of saying "I'm going to dress up a bit and go out to find places where I might meet people who might be interested in a relationship" are a lot less of an issue. Both because they're acting more on *you* (so the consent piece is not an issue), and because they're not forcing a particular end result.

This is also part of the question of 'what's your goal'? Doing magic *well* generally means identifying your actual goal. If what you want is love, or a loving relationship, you want to focus on *that*, not on whether a specific person will give you that. (They might not be able to have a healthy relationship at this point in their life. They might be a great relationship partner for someone else, but a bad one for you, for reasons that aren't anyone's fault. They may love you a lot, but be about to get a job that's going to mean they're moving to somewhere you really don't want to/can't live. You have no idea.)

Point is, if you focus on the 'loving relationship' part, there's a bunch more people who might fill that goal, *and* you get the thing you actually want. Not the thing you think you want at the moment that looks superficially like that (a specific person.)
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Faemon

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Quote from: PrincessKLS;144972
Are there any pagan paths out there that don't see a problem with casting love spells on a specific person?


That's more of a cultural/sub-cultural thing than part of any "thou shalt not" list in any one religion. Some chaotes, for instance, would be fine with it. Shift your paradigm from, "How to get in Specific Person's pants ugh why I am forever alone" to "I am a confident romantic person that Specific Person would benefit from having in their life" and the latter just might work--but you've done nothing but shift your paradigm. It's the sort of love spell that just mostly works by giving someone the confidence to make a move, and it doesn't mess with Specific Person's energy or free will because they can still decide "nope, sorry my life is full" and it might not even matter anymore because your new paradigm comes with an other-fish-in-the-sea attitude.

In Greek mythology, the god Anteros is the patron of requited love and avenger of unrequited love...that gets a "yikes" reaction from me because I don't think friendzoning is worth vengeance necessarily, but that's there...
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Scales

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Quote from: PrincessKLS;144972
Are there any pagan paths out there that don't see a problem with casting love spells on a specific person?
I have never heard of one. Lots of traditions don't specifically forbid it, but for the most part, in most traditions I've read about or been in a) harming innocent parties is considered bad (taking away free will and essentially date rape drugging someone are both generally considered harmful) and b) even if it's not forbidden, the members of the religion generally don't want to abuse people.

Quote from: PrincessKLS;144972
why not cast a spell to allow someone to fall in love with you?
I don't want to abuse people. I wouldn't drug someone, and even if the consent thing was an issue, why would I want someone who didn't actually love me to be coerced into it? That wouldn't be very loving of me in return, and it wouldn't be very nice to know I was only 'loved' because of a spell.

Quote from: PrincessKLS;144972
It seems to me like this is a big taboo in pagan circles
For some strange reason, most people find the idea of manipulating and/or raping others repulsive.

Quote from: PrincessKLS;144972
I question this, because the witch who taught me this in their youth taught beliefs from both a Wiccan and Chaos Magick path and she was very against casting spells to bend someone's will to love you but she wasn't against doing certain spells to manipulate other situations.
I don't really even understand how you can see it that way. Was she also manipulating people to do other stuff? Otherwise I don't see a contradiction. The same rules apply metaphysically as physically- there's nothing wrong with doing whatever you can to get what you want, but that is always within reason, and reason generally means 'without ruining anyone's life for no reason other than a whim.'

Seriously, I get beginners who come in and ask for a love spell without considering the ramifications, but having considered what it means, I literally cannot comprehend how you find that okay. Even if I could, I also can't comprehend why anyone would want someone who had to be forced.

(this is all, of course, assuming you mean love spells that force someone to do something and are cast without consent. perhaps you mean spells on another person to encourage existing love to flourish between you, with that person's permission, but it certainly doesn't sound like it)

Quote from: Jenett;144979
This is also part of the question of 'what's your goal'? Doing magic *well* generally means identifying your actual goal. If what you want is love, or a loving relationship, you want to focus on *that*, not on whether a specific person will give you that. (They might not be able to have a healthy relationship at this point in their life. They might be a great relationship partner for someone else, but a bad one for you, for reasons that aren't anyone's fault. They may love you a lot, but be about to get a job that's going to mean they're moving to somewhere you really don't want to/can't live. You have no idea.)

Point is, if you focus on the 'loving relationship' part, there's a bunch more people who might fill that goal, *and* you get the thing you actually want. Not the thing you think you want at the moment that looks superficially like that (a specific person.)

+1

I doubt most people's ability to manipulate someone so thoroughly via magic anyway, but nonetheless it bothers me.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 11:23:30 pm by Scales »

dragonfaerie

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Quote from: PrincessKLS;144972
why not cast a spell to allow someone to fall in love with you?


I don't think there's anything wrong with casting a spell to allow someone to fall in love with you, if by that you're implying that Person X already has feelings for Person Y and there's some stumbling block that needs to be overcome in order for these two to have a relationship.

But that's not usually what people imply. Why would anyone want to make someone else fall in love with them? Because it's what they think they want at the time.

I did a love spell, and about 6 months later I met the man I eventually married. My spell was crafted to find me a person with the qualities I wanted in a mate. Does he have those qualities? Yes. Is he perfect? No. Is our marriage perfect? Hell no.

Funny enough, we know a lot of the same people and had been going to the same science fiction conventions for years. We'd seen each other loads of times with no consequence. Did the spell bring us together? I like to think so. It was the right time.

So from where I sit, it's much better to do a spell for what you actually NEED vs what you want. Not for a specific car or specific job or specific person, but what you NEED in a car/job/person. And that way, you open yourself up to possibilities you didn't originally realize. When I cast that love spell? I thought I was in (unrequited) love with someone. I didn't cast it on him. And honestly, had I ended up with that guy, I don't think it would have lasted long-term. I've been with my husband for over 10 years now.

Karen

PrincessKLS

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Quote from: dragonfaerie;145471
I don't think there's anything wrong with casting a spell to allow someone to fall in love with you, if by that you're implying that Person X already has feelings for Person Y and there's some stumbling block that needs to be overcome in order for these two to have a relationship.

But that's not usually what people imply. Why would anyone want to make someone else fall in love with them? Because it's what they think they want at the time.

I did a love spell, and about 6 months later I met the man I eventually married. My spell was crafted to find me a person with the qualities I wanted in a mate. Does he have those qualities? Yes. Is he perfect? No. Is our marriage perfect? Hell no.

Funny enough, we know a lot of the same people and had been going to the same science fiction conventions for years. We'd seen each other loads of times with no consequence. Did the spell bring us together? I like to think so. It was the right time.

So from where I sit, it's much better to do a spell for what you actually NEED vs what you want. Not for a specific car or specific job or specific person, but what you NEED in a car/job/person. And that way, you open yourself up to possibilities you didn't originally realize. When I cast that love spell? I thought I was in (unrequited) love with someone. I didn't cast it on him. And honestly, had I ended up with that guy, I don't think it would have lasted long-term. I've been with my husband for over 10 years now.

Karen


Well it's a situation honestly where I know the person from an online site, it's not exactly a socialization only site but an artistic site and he knows about me and has resourced my art but we haven't talked directly. There's indication that he loves me for sure but he's somewhat noticed me.  And plus we live kind of far away from each other right now. So I guess this would be an iffy question of whether or not to do it.
PrincessKLS

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Quote from: PrincessKLS;145524
Well it's a situation honestly where I know the person from an online site, it's not exactly a socialization only site but an artistic site and he knows about me and has resourced my art but we haven't talked directly. There's indication that he loves me for sure but he's somewhat noticed me.  And plus we live kind of far away from each other right now. So I guess this would be an iffy question of whether or not to do it.

 
I think the first thing, then, would be to talk directly via phone or chat, and then after that to meet in person as soon as it's feasible. (I saw this because I've met several partners and potential partners online, and meeting in person, early, is really important. Otherwise you can have months of buildup and wonderful conversations, and then finally meet and there's no chemistry.) If this isn't feasible, like for financial reasons, and you really want to do magic, magic to help make the meeting possible (like drawing money) is likely to be more useful than love spells.

PrincessKLS

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Quote from: Siren;145533
I think the first thing, then, would be to talk directly via phone or chat, and then after that to meet in person as soon as it's feasible. (I saw this because I've met several partners and potential partners online, and meeting in person, early, is really important. Otherwise you can have months of buildup and wonderful conversations, and then finally meet and there's no chemistry.) If this isn't feasible, like for financial reasons, and you really want to do magic, magic to help make the meeting possible (like drawing money) is likely to be more useful than love spells.

 


Yeah thanks, there is a bit of a feasibility problems because it's not a typical online dating situation. I'll think about the spells I cast.
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Quote from: PrincessKLS;145524
Well it's a situation honestly where I know the person from an online site, it's not exactly a socialization only site but an artistic site and he knows about me and has resourced my art but we haven't talked directly. There's indication that he loves me for sure but he's somewhat noticed me.  And plus we live kind of far away from each other right now. So I guess this would be an iffy question of whether or not to do it.

 
So you haven't talked directly to the guy, at all, and yet you think you know enough about him to want him in love with you? That can't end well. You have to know someone before you can love them. Every bad-idea warning bell in my head is going off with this one.
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

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dragonfaerie

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Quote from: stephyjh;145564
So you haven't talked directly to the guy, at all, and yet you think you know enough about him to want him in love with you? That can't end well. You have to know someone before you can love them. Every bad-idea warning bell in my head is going off with this one.

 
I'm starting to feel like this is what my HPS calls a "learning experience". I'll be interested to see how casting the spell actually works, because I'm pretty sure it's not going to work any better than going a practical mundane route.

Karen

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Quote from: stephyjh;145564
So you haven't talked directly to the guy, at all, and yet you think you know enough about him to want him in love with you? That can't end well. You have to know someone before you can love them. Every bad-idea warning bell in my head is going off with this one.

 

The situation is a bit complicated, I'd rather not say much to give things away but I know a lot about him, let's just say.
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Quote from: PrincessKLS;145789
The situation is a bit complicated, I'd rather not say much to give things away but I know a lot about him, let's just say.

 
That sounds like you've stalked him. You're really creeping me out.
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

-Robert Burns

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Quote from: PrincessKLS;145789
The situation is a bit complicated, I'd rather not say much to give things away but I know a lot about him, let's just say.

Uhh... This implies that you are definitely stalking him, and I'm goingto advise you stop. Staking never ends well, for anybody.
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