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Author Topic: You Are a Neopagan Wuss  (Read 7892 times)

Hariti

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Re: You Are a Neopagan Wuss
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2017, 10:36:12 pm »
When I was trekking the Himalaya, where Tibetan Buddhism holds sway (even though I was on the Nepalese side, up in the mountains it's Tibetan Buddhism), I couldn't get a meal with any meat in it to save my life. Apocryphal info, I know...but if my annoyance factor at seeing all those chickens that nobody would kill for the benefit of my consumption is any indication, they're really, really vegetarian up there.

Well, compared to anywhere outside of India/Nepal/Tibet that is an accurate assessment. It's not that they eat a lot of meat in the Himalayas, it's that most other rural, Hindu majority regions of India eat even less meat. So you would probably still be struck by the lack of meat consumption if you are comparing it to anywhere outside of those specific regions.

The reason for this is because Shaktas, the sect of Hinduism dedicated to Godess worship, sometimes allow for the ritual sacrifice of animals. Killing animals for any reasons other than sacrifice is usually still frowned upon, but not as strongly as in other sects. The practical result is that many Shaktas  only eat meat once or twice per year, but are still not technically vegetarian. Of course, many Shaktas are indeed Vegeterians, since they follow many of the same basic spiritual principles as other Hindus. So these regions are still mostly meat-free, and largely vegetarian, but they are much more tolerant of meat than many other Hindu areas.

There is also the (very messy) issue of Caste, which does not necessarily line up with economic wealth, both of which have strong effects on the diet of people in Nepal and India. Also, rural people in India and Nepal eat less meat than city people; city people typically eat more meat regardless of social status or religious beliefs.

So it's perfectly reasonable for you to not see much meat eating in Nepal. It's a rare and infrequent thing by any standard other than the standard of India.
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Re: You Are a Neopagan Wuss
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2017, 06:46:06 pm »
But if you're trying to adapt ancient gods to a modern context...I don't know. Maybe it is okay, in a modern context where civilization makes nature less cruel to us, to reinterpret deities into a more benign form to fit.

This is my angle, mostly.

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Re: You Are a Neopagan Wuss
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2017, 07:30:50 pm »
On the first: I have mixed feelings about "lightening up" the dark side specifically when it comes to deity. If you're trying to understand how the ancients worshipped, then I think it's detrimental, because considering their relationship to a more sharp-elbowed natural world, you'd be mischaracterizing their gods.

But if you're trying to adapt ancient gods to a modern context...I don't know. Maybe it is okay, in a modern context where civilization makes nature less cruel to us, to reinterpret deities into a more benign form to fit. But then are they the same gods as the ancients knew?

Exactly this, all of it. We don't have the same relationship to our environment or gods as our predecessors and that does shape our practices and beliefs.  The rapid pace of scientific and technological development over the last 150 years has helped create even more of a distance between humans and the nature.  I think this trend will continue, that we will become more distanced from nature's harsher side, and that we will take our gods with us.

To riff off of your question, do the gods themselves change or is it the way in which we experience them that changes?  Or some combination of the two?  If they are mutable, how much do our beliefs change them?

If the gods are fixed, what happens when our beliefs and practices become too distant from their true selves? Do they abandon us for some other world? Do they die off? Do they go to war with the new gods at Rock City?  ;)

All unanswerable, I know, but still fun to ponder.

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Re: You Are a Neopagan Wuss
« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2017, 08:32:25 am »

So what's your take? Do you think this is a prime point of departure between the neopagan and ancient pagan conceptions of deity? And if so, what do you think the implications are?

Well, considering that I am a fundamentalist, I believe that the best way to honour nature is to tie someone to a stone, slash them until they collapse, cut out their heart, and then wear the skin until it rots, all I can say is this: most neo-pagans would have a panic attack if I was in charge of their festivals.

I'm kind of amused by that.

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Re: You Are a Neopagan Wuss
« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2017, 08:43:14 am »
Well, considering that I am a fundamentalist, I believe that the best way to honour nature is to tie someone to a stone, slash them until they collapse, cut out their heart, and then wear the skin until it rots, all I can say is this: most neo-pagans would have a panic attack if I was in charge of their festivals.

I'm kind of amused by that.

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Re: You Are a Neopagan Wuss
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2017, 09:28:37 am »
This metaphor got me thinking about relationships between actual children and their parents. And specifically, how my own relationship with my parents has changed now that I'm an adult. I find I connect more with them as equals than as authority figures; and I can appreciate some of their good points in ways I didn't use to, but at the same time I don't need to put up with some of their behaviors that I don't like.

And isn't that kind of how humanity's relationship with nature has changed, too?

In more general response to this thread:

I'm seeing two opposing cultural pulls at work in this topic.

One is the one that has been mentioned, the aversion to mentioning the dark and uncomfortable side of anything.

The other, though, is the value Western culture places on 'toughness'. There's kind of a, trope? Motif? that civilization makes people 'soft' and that people who endure hardship somehow have more worth than people who don't. Personally I think this is horseshit.

The saying goes "adversity builds character" but in my experience it's more like "adversity reveals character." People build up resources (material and spiritual) in good times, and then spend them during hardship. While ordeals turn up in many religions, they're generally the test, not the teaching, and of limited duration.

So yes, I'm a wuss and I'm proud of it.

Other than observing rituals on the solstices and equinoxes my Christo-pagan or Christo-pantheistic practices are not particularly nature oriented in emphasis, and I observe those dates for meanings I associate with the journey of the sun, and the seasons do not play a part, especially since where I live it might still be hot in December.

I could be nature based in that I include literally everything under my definition of nature, but I do not observe holy days related to agriculture.  Even as a rural/small town person all of that stuff is foreign to me.

I agree with the above that I do not care to suffer more and would rather be a wuss.  I think I have suffered enough mentally without needing to add more by refusing to shield myself from nature's harsher realities.  At any rate, I will have to die eventually anyway, but hopefully in a gentle manner, but that is not a guarantee.

I think it unfortunate to reinterpret the stories of gods in a fluffy way, distorting their myths and excluding their dark sides.  I have plenty of dark in my spirituality.  But gods' stories and our understandings do evolve.  I think it is fine to reinterpret so long as we acknowledge that's what we are doing without having to pretend those new interpretations are original, and I would avoid totally sanitizing the dark aspects as I think that often stems from a naive view of how harsh the world can be even with our modern comforts.

Are the gods the same gods after we reinterpret?  I tend to say no because from what I can understand of it I agree with the Buddhist notion of anatta, especially in the Secular Buddhist sense, so I do not believe in a self as typically conceived.  I am sure the Nicene Yahweh is not the one from Exodus, that liberal theologians' Yahweh is not the Nicene one.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 09:37:19 am by EclecticWheel »
My personal moral code:

Love wisely, and do what thou wilt.

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Re: You Are a Neopagan Wuss
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2017, 09:47:32 am »
Other than observing rituals on the solstices and equinoxes my Christo-pagan or Christo-pantheistic practices are not particularly nature oriented in emphasis, and I observe those dates for meanings I associate with the journey of the sun, and the seasons do not play a part, especially since where I live it might still be hot in December.

I could be nature based in that I include literally everything under my definition of nature, but I do not observe holy days related to agriculture.  Even as a rural/small town person all of that stuff is foreign to me.

I agree with the above that I do not care to suffer more and would rather be a wuss.  I think I have suffered enough mentally without needing to add more by refusing to shield myself from nature's harsher realities.  At any rate, I will have to die eventually anyway, but hopefully in a gentle manner, but that is not a guarantee.

I think it unfortunate to reinterpret the stories of gods in a fluffy way, distorting their myths and excluding their dark sides.  I have plenty of dark in my spirituality.  But gods' stories and our understandings do evolve.  I think it is fine to reinterpret so long as we acknowledge that's what we are doing without having to pretend those new interpretations are original, and I would avoid totally sanitizing the dark aspects as I think that often stems from a naive view of how harsh the world can be even with our modern comforts.

Are the gods the same gods after we reinterpret?  I tend to say no because from what I can understand of it I agree with the Buddhist notion of anatta, especially in the Secular Buddhist sense, so I do not believe in a self as typically conceived.  I am sure the Nicene Yahweh is not the one from Exodus, that liberal theologians' Yahweh is not the Nicene one.

I would add:

For that matter I have a radically different construct of self than the one I had only 20 years ago.
My personal moral code:

Love wisely, and do what thou wilt.

Naunau

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Re: You Are a Neopagan Wuss
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2017, 10:05:25 am »
Exactly this, all of it. We don't have the same relationship to our environment or gods as our predecessors and that does shape our practices and beliefs.  The rapid pace of scientific and technological development over the last 150 years has helped create even more of a distance between humans and the nature.  I think this trend will continue, that we will become more distanced from nature's harsher side, and that we will take our gods with us.
I'd call it an actual loss of nature instead of distancing, because at the same time, we understand it better (and so we understand how some things might go very wrong for both sides at the same time).

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Re: You Are a Neopagan Wuss
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2017, 05:01:29 pm »

The saying goes "adversity builds character" but in my experience it's more like "adversity reveals character."
YES!!!  Just YES!


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Re: You Are a Neopagan Wuss
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2017, 08:58:31 pm »

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Re: You Are a Neopagan Wuss
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2017, 10:52:34 am »
So what's your take? Do you think this is a prime point of departure between the neopagan and ancient pagan conceptions of deity? And if so, what do you think the implications are?

This is something that isn't exclusive to neo-pagans; many people I've interacted with cannot deal with the brutalities of life, including pain, suffering, and death, mainly because they've been shielded by it and either do not reconcile it within their minds, or refuse to discuss it, labeling it as taboo for discussion. For example, I will never forget the family members of those who died while in Hospice care. They were eternally grateful for us taking care of their loved ones, however, they would rarely come by to visit, or bring their younger kids to visit those who are terminally ill. At the same time, I was one of the crew who took care of their loved ones and made their ends of life peaceful - very interesting, and humbling experience.

Another example that comes to mind - and @Altair knows this one - is of a woman who had rescued a pigeon who was struck by a car. She brought the poor bird in to the wildlife hospital, only for it to have died on the way to the hospital. I checked for vital signs immediately, however, I had to tell her that I couldn't do anything for the bird (after all, its heart stopped and once that happens, you can't resuscitate). She looked at me incredulously, took the bird, and started to blow air into its mouth... where fluids were coming out. She blamed me for not doing anything for the bird and even stated I should have done CPR (which involves a tube going into the lungs and being super careful about it - it's not for the unskilled). Violently, she stomped out.

She's just one example of many that I have where people are disconnected from death, suffering, and pain. This is a problem because we, as a society, are focusing so much on the positive, that we're losing appreciation for the negative. Without that appreciation for, respect for, and humbleness towards the negative, the positive dims in its luminosity, and loses its luster. This is especially relevant for us pagans - even if the path we're on isn't Nature based - because we are affected by the darker aspects of nature, whether we like it or not, and we need to embrace it, because Nature doesn't dish out only the good; She dishes out the bad, and she lets you know it.
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Re: You Are a Neopagan Wuss
« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2017, 06:16:07 am »
This is something that isn't exclusive to neo-pagans; many people I've interacted with cannot deal with the brutalities of life, including pain, suffering, and death, mainly because they've been shielded by it and either do not reconcile it within their minds, or refuse to discuss it, labeling it as taboo for discussion. For example, I will never forget the family members of those who died while in Hospice care. They were eternally grateful for us taking care of their loved ones, however, they would rarely come by to visit, or bring their younger kids to visit those who are terminally ill. At the same time, I was one of the crew who took care of their loved ones and made their ends of life peaceful - very interesting, and humbling experience.

Another example that comes to mind - and @Altair knows this one - is of a woman who had rescued a pigeon who was struck by a car. She brought the poor bird in to the wildlife hospital, only for it to have died on the way to the hospital. I checked for vital signs immediately, however, I had to tell her that I couldn't do anything for the bird (after all, its heart stopped and once that happens, you can't resuscitate). She looked at me incredulously, took the bird, and started to blow air into its mouth... where fluids were coming out. She blamed me for not doing anything for the bird and even stated I should have done CPR (which involves a tube going into the lungs and being super careful about it - it's not for the unskilled). Violently, she stomped out.

She's just one example of many that I have where people are disconnected from death, suffering, and pain. This is a problem because we, as a society, are focusing so much on the positive, that we're losing appreciation for the negative. Without that appreciation for, respect for, and humbleness towards the negative, the positive dims in its luminosity, and loses its luster. This is especially relevant for us pagans - even if the path we're on isn't Nature based - because we are affected by the darker aspects of nature, whether we like it or not, and we need to embrace it, because Nature doesn't dish out only the good; She dishes out the bad, and she lets you know it.

I'm much in agreement here.. suffering and death and the realities of nature and the inevitable cycle of life has really been stuck in the taboo bin these days and most people are for the most part very far removed from it and don't want to deal with it. I think this is an unfortunate symptom of 21st century society and a very closed minded way of living. I have casual work in the mental health peer support field and there confronting things like mental illness and death or thoughts of death really have to be brought out into the light and talked about openly and wrestled with. My day job in the geological field has shown me some of the harsh realities of nature as I can see the struggle of plants and animals to survive in the desert here and that is one harsh place to scratch out a living. It really puts me in my place to get a taste of that reality, which is very different to life here in town with its shelter and amenities all readily available. So yes I'm a neo pagan wuss for living in town but I have some appreciation and respect of the more natural world which us humans started out in. 

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Re: You Are a Neopagan Wuss
« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2017, 11:42:43 am »
I'm much in agreement here.. suffering and death and the realities of nature and the inevitable cycle of life has really been stuck in the taboo bin these days and most people are for the most part very far removed from it and don't want to deal with it. I think this is an unfortunate symptom of 21st century society
Absolutely. As an example, my mother is dying. Slowly but sometime in the next few months pretty certainly. Everything is shutting down.

As the person who will have to handle everything (none of her other kids have any discretionary income, and my son or my uncle are the only ones who could help pay). So I have been getting organized. She wants to be cremated before any funeral, so i found and attractive unusual urn. Very much to her taste. No one who knows me (except family) will look at the picture of the urn on my phone. They all get squicked out at the very thought. It’s an effing vase with a lid, people!! 

I have been totally amazed at the reactions. My mother essentially checked out of life 16 years ago, I’m sorry if I can be reasonably calm about the planning parts.


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