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Author Topic: What's the view on equality?  (Read 27465 times)

Valeria Crowe

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Re: What's the view on equality?
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2015, 10:27:46 am »
Quote from: HeartShadow;172059
What does your personal path say about equality?  Is it a goal?  A danger?  What does equality look like?  Is it a religion-wide goal, or more personal?

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Frankly, its a buzzword. It means so many different things in so many different mouths it might as well have no meaning. Its a liberal buzzword, and thus less annoying than conservative buzzwords, but a buzzword none the less.

I treat people as they treat me. I care nothing for race or sex or orientation or what have you, privledged or oppressed. Treat me poorly, get treated poorly. Be friendly and kind, see it returned. Quite basic. That might be called equality.
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RandallS

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Re: What's the view on equality?
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2015, 11:59:06 am »
Quote from: HeartShadow;172059
What does your personal path say about equality?  Is it a goal?  A danger?  What does equality look like?  Is it a religion-wide goal, or more personal?

My path doesn't really say a lot about equality. Ancient Hellenic culture certainly wasn't about equality (especially as we see it today), but this was more culture than command of the gods.

Personally, I am for equality for all -- at least within reason. For example, people are different. I am unwilling to try to eliminate those differences by forcing everyone to the lowest common denominator. However, everyone deserves equal opportunity and the same rights and privileges as everyone else. Being a genius, being rich, being popular should not give you more rights or privileges nor should being poor, being unpopular, or the like give you less rights and privileges.
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Pteranotropi

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Re: What's the view on equality?
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2015, 07:17:27 am »
Quote from: HeartShadow;172059
What does your personal path say about equality?  Is it a goal?  A danger?  What does equality look like?  Is it a religion-wide goal, or more personal?

***

FlameKeeping is about radical equality.  The goal is that everyone gets the chance to find and use their strengths and work together for the betterment of everyone.

Obviously, this is a goal.  I do not expect utopia, even though it's a work-towards - we're human.  We need a goal, but we also need to recognize that we're carrying the stick the carrot's attached to.  There's always more, always better.

And equality does not mean by removing differences, but by enhancing them.  That each of us can use our strengths and buttress each other's weaknesses.  Uniformity would be the enemy, because uniformity means we cannot grow, cannot change.  Cannot experiment and adapt.  It is in our differences that we have individuality, and without individuality we cannot choose community.

Who we are is important.  Who we can become is what we discover together.

 
As an LGBT individual, obviously I'm very invested in this.

I don't see morality as being universal, but selflessness is obviously far prefferable to being selfish, so a lot of my time is devoted to trying to fix things within the best of my capacities. At times this has hampered by spiritual development, but I've acquired decent harmony by now.

veggiewolf

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Re: What's the view on equality?
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2015, 10:14:53 am »
Quote from: Pteranotropi;174670
...
I don't see morality as being universal, but selflessness is obviously far prefferable to being selfish...

 
I'm interested in this statement.  Could you expand on why you think selflessness is obviously far preferable, and how that equates with morality not being universal?
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Re: What's the view on equality?
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2015, 07:00:40 pm »
Quote from: Cuthwin Crowe;174606
Frankly, its a buzzword. It means so many different things in so many different mouths it might as well have no meaning. Its a liberal buzzword, and thus less annoying than conservative buzzwords, but a buzzword none the less.


This topic reminded me of this image which illustrates two different concepts of 'equality'. (They're labeled conservative and liberal, which I'm not sure I agree with, but I prefer the 'liberal' one).

Yei

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Re: What's the view on equality?
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2015, 09:10:37 pm »
Quote from: Sefiru;174710
This topic reminded me of this image which illustrates two different concepts of 'equality'. (They're labeled conservative and liberal, which I'm not sure I agree with, but I prefer the 'liberal' one).

 
I expect that there are also a huge amount of cultural differences too. Same as for other concepts like 'freedom' and 'property'.

Personally I don't like these general terms because they can become very confusing, very quickly.

Louisvillian

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Re: What's the view on equality?
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2015, 03:14:52 am »
Quote from: Sefiru;174710
This topic reminded me of this image which illustrates two different concepts of 'equality'.
It's the distinction between 'equality of opportunity' and 'equality of outcomes'. Though I wouldn't characterize it as conservative vs liberal per se. A conservative society can just as readily advocate either. What matters is if a culture believe fairness or justice to be found at the standing point or the end point of something.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 03:15:11 am by Louisvillian »

Pteranotropi

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Re: What's the view on equality?
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2015, 10:07:51 pm »
Quote from: veggiewolf;174680
I'm interested in this statement.  Could you expand on why you think selflessness is obviously far preferable, and how that equates with morality not being universal?

 
Because selfishness is petty and unambiguously reductive. There just isn't a way to be fundamentally selfish and come across as anything but lower and self-destructive. Even if the concept of morality is a man-made abstract, it has its benefits over nihilism.

Valeria Crowe

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Re: What's the view on equality?
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2015, 11:37:17 pm »
Quote from: Pteranotropi;174766
Because selfishness is petty and unambiguously reductive. There just isn't a way to be fundamentally selfish and come across as anything but lower and self-destructive. Even if the concept of morality is a man-made abstract, it has its benefits over nihilism.

 
Those are flat statements, not reasoned arguments. 'Selfishness is bad because it is bad.'
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Tom

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Re: What's the view on equality?
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2015, 01:42:39 am »
Quote from: Pteranotropi;174766
Because selfishness is petty and unambiguously reductive. There just isn't a way to be fundamentally selfish and come across as anything but lower and self-destructive. Even if the concept of morality is a man-made abstract, it has its benefits over nihilism.

 
The problem is that a lot of the time we use the world selfish to describe things like taking time for ourselves or doing things for ourselves that replenish ourselves. Some would say that being selfless is giving your all to everyone all the time, but then you burn out if you don't take some "selfish" time to yourself. Should there not be a balance between selfish and selfless then? And wouldn't that need to be selfish sometimes mean that is not bad and therefore it really doesn't fit as a way to measure morality?

Juniperberry

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Re: What's the view on equality?
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2015, 01:48:56 am »
Quote from: Tom;174770
The problem is that a lot of the time we use the world selfish to describe things like taking time for ourselves or doing things for ourselves that replenish ourselves. Some would say that being selfless is giving your all to everyone all the time, but then you burn out if you don't take some "selfish" time to yourself. Should there not be a balance between selfish and selfless then? And wouldn't that need to be selfish sometimes mean that is not bad and therefore it really doesn't fit as a way to measure morality?

 
This is something I saw on pinterest that explains it as well as anything:

"Putting yourself first is not selfish. Thinking about yourself constantly is selfish.  Respect the difference."
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Sefiru

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Re: What's the view on equality?
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2015, 06:33:59 pm »
Quote from: Pteranotropi;174766
Because selfishness is petty and unambiguously reductive. There just isn't a way to be fundamentally selfish and come across as anything but lower and self-destructive. Even if the concept of morality is a man-made abstract, it has its benefits over nihilism.


I am not sure how you are equating selfishness with nihilism. I thought nihilism was the belief that nothing at all has meaning?

And anyway, it is entirely possible to act altruistically out of self-interested motives: improvements to my community usually benefit me as an individual, after all.

Pteranotropi

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Re: What's the view on equality?
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2015, 06:53:07 pm »
Quote from: Tom;174770
The problem is that a lot of the time we use the world selfish to describe things like taking time for ourselves or doing things for ourselves that replenish ourselves. Some would say that being selfless is giving your all to everyone all the time, but then you burn out if you don't take some "selfish" time to yourself. Should there not be a balance between selfish and selfless then? And wouldn't that need to be selfish sometimes mean that is not bad and therefore it really doesn't fit as a way to measure morality?


Everyone obviously isn't going to have the energy to act selflessly all the time, myself included. I meant on a general attitude, to be able to do something within the confines of one's capacities.
 
Quote from: Sefiru;174797
I am not sure how you are equating selfishness with nihilism. I thought nihilism was the belief that nothing at all has meaning?

And anyway, it is entirely possible to act altruistically out of self-interested motives: improvements to my community usually benefit me as an individual, after all.

 
True on both accounts.

Yei

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Re: What's the view on equality?
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2015, 11:41:41 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;174771
This is something I saw on pinterest that explains it as well as anything:

"Putting yourself first is not selfish. Thinking about yourself constantly is selfish.  Respect the difference."


When someone tells me to 'put myself first' I assume they are trying to sell me something.

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Re: What's the view on equality?
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2015, 03:42:43 pm »
Quote from: Pteranotropi;174766
Because selfishness is petty and unambiguously reductive. There just isn't a way to be fundamentally selfish and come across as anything but lower and self-destructive. Even if the concept of morality is a man-made abstract, it has its benefits over nihilism.

 
There is a saying in my tradition the wisdom of which I suspect is entirely relevant here.  It is:

"Put on your own oxygen mask before assisting others."
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

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