collapse

Author Topic: The 'godphone' concept  (Read 4613 times)

Sage

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 2186
  • Total likes: 4
    • View Profile
    • http://sageandstarshine.wordpress.com
Re: The 'godphone' concept
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2014, 12:16:07 pm »
Quote from: Allaya;143592
The beetle would be a thing, would it not? That's what I meant. Granted, you can do interpretations on the absence of things too, but generally you can't interpret absolutely nothing. A person, place, thing, or event is needed. What you do with it is up to you, I agree.

 
How are you defining a "thing"? I mean... everything is a "thing". The color of the sky, my mood when I wake up, whether my dog picks a green toy or a red one. Humans aren't ever not receiving input from the outside world unless we're in a vegetative state or dead.
Maker, though the darkness comes upon me,
I shall embrace the light. I shall weather the storm.
I shall endure.
What you have created, no one can tear asunder.

-Canticle of Trials 1:10

Sage and Starshine (my spiritual blog): last updated 2/25.
Friday Otherfaith Blogging: last updated 2/27
Join the Emboatening Crew over on Kiva! Emboatening the boatless since Opet 2013.

Allaya

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2013
  • Location: Out of My Mind
  • Posts: 843
  • Country: no
  • Total likes: 10
    • View Profile
  • Religion: It's Complicated
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her/hers
Re: The 'godphone' concept
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2014, 01:55:18 pm »
Quote from: Sage;143595
How are you defining a "thing"? I mean... everything is a "thing". The color of the sky, my mood when I wake up, whether my dog picks a green toy or a red one. Humans aren't ever not receiving input from the outside world unless we're in a vegetative state or dead.

 
I am defining an interpretable thing as the appearance or presence of a person, place, thing, event, or notable lack thereof. This is fairly commonplace in Appalachian traditions. Things are generally divided into signs and omens. Signs are things that you observe that are part of nature and not out of the ordinary. Omens are things that you observe that are part of nature and are weird or unusual. How you interpret signs and omens is pretty much up to you.

Intangibles such as someone's mood in the morning are not signs or omens. Rather, they're observations and not used for divination purposes (other than predicting that one might want extra coffee).
Service is the rent we pay for the privilege of living on this earth.  — Shirley Chisholm
No doubt the truth can be unpleasant, but I am not sure that unpleasantness is the same as the truth.  — Roger Ebert
It is difficult to get a person to understand something when their livelihood depends upon them not understanding it. — Upton Sinclair (adapted)
People cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into. — Fisher Ames (adapted)

Sage

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 2186
  • Total likes: 4
    • View Profile
    • http://sageandstarshine.wordpress.com
Re: The 'godphone' concept
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2014, 01:59:49 pm »
Quote from: Allaya;143605
Intangibles such as someone's mood in the morning are not signs or omens. Rather, they're observations and not used for divination purposes (other than predicting that one might want extra coffee).

 
Maybe in your tradition, but I think it's overreaching to state broadly that something intangible couldn't be a sign from deity (or one could not interpret it as such). I mean, tough luck for those of us whose main source of spiritual knowledge comes from gut instinct and hunches, yeah?
Maker, though the darkness comes upon me,
I shall embrace the light. I shall weather the storm.
I shall endure.
What you have created, no one can tear asunder.

-Canticle of Trials 1:10

Sage and Starshine (my spiritual blog): last updated 2/25.
Friday Otherfaith Blogging: last updated 2/27
Join the Emboatening Crew over on Kiva! Emboatening the boatless since Opet 2013.

Allaya

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2013
  • Location: Out of My Mind
  • Posts: 843
  • Country: no
  • Total likes: 10
    • View Profile
  • Religion: It's Complicated
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her/hers
Re: The 'godphone' concept
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2014, 02:15:59 pm »
Quote from: Sage;143606
Maybe in your tradition, but I think it's overreaching to state broadly that something intangible couldn't be a sign from deity (or one could not interpret it as such). I mean, tough luck for those of us whose main source of spiritual knowledge comes from gut instinct and hunches, yeah?

 
I was kind of explaining from my personal viewpoint, which is why I pointed out the tradition involved. I thought that was clear and so you have my apologies since I seem not to have conveyed that sufficiently. I was not intending it to be a blanket statement.

Also, if you are going insinuate that I've been making assumptions (which I have not since my beliefs are only applicable to me) when answering a direct question, I would like to point out that you're assuming things about my viewpoint that you really have no backing for. I never discounted the value of gut instinct and hunches. They are a significant part of my work. I'm honestly baffled as to where you got the idea.
Service is the rent we pay for the privilege of living on this earth.  — Shirley Chisholm
No doubt the truth can be unpleasant, but I am not sure that unpleasantness is the same as the truth.  — Roger Ebert
It is difficult to get a person to understand something when their livelihood depends upon them not understanding it. — Upton Sinclair (adapted)
People cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into. — Fisher Ames (adapted)

Nyktipolos

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1498
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: The 'godphone' concept
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2014, 02:30:19 pm »
Quote from: Sage;143606
Maybe in your tradition, but I think it's overreaching to state broadly that something intangible couldn't be a sign from deity (or one could not interpret it as such). I mean, tough luck for those of us whose main source of spiritual knowledge comes from gut instinct and hunches, yeah?

 
I think Allaya's response was stemming from beith's example of if a real live deer was sent from the gods as a sign, they'd need the deer to act outside of it's natural behaviors to think "hey, it's a sign from the gods", and Allaya responding that it might be dangerous for a deer to be 'forced' by a deity to do that, so why not try just interpreting deer when they come across you if it's a sign from the gods or not? Intangible signs (like urges, feelings, or visions) from the gods weren't exactly in the scope of Allaya and beith's interaction. At least how I understood it?

I get what you're saying though, El, and that's actually primarily how I interact with the gods (along with very rare dreams). I just didn't see it with being in the scope of Allaya's statements and beith's original post, as they were talking about physical and incarnate deer.
"Though my soul may set in darkness, it will rise in perfect light;
I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night." - Sarah Williams
On the Rivers

Danyarose

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: May 2014
  • Posts: 32
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: The 'godphone' concept
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2014, 06:11:40 pm »
Quote from: Yei;142837
I see. I must have misunderstood.

I guess the reason for the phone comparison is simply because phones are now used to communicate long distance. It sort of makes sense.


 
Well it does miss indirect communication through signs or altered states of conciousness. So I'd have to agree.

 
I believe you are right that it is about the ease of connection using phones. But I believe there is the beginnings of a real problem here. The major religions have all fallen into the trap of clergy/laity and I really hope we can avoid that as pagans. The Gods talk with all of us if we take the time to listen and are careful to avoid traps of believing our own PR.

Redfaery

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 1345
  • Total likes: 40
    • View Profile
Re: The 'godphone' concept
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2014, 06:16:25 pm »
Quote from: Danyarose;147991
I believe you are right that it is about the ease of connection using phones. But I believe there is the beginnings of a real problem here. The major religions have all fallen into the trap of clergy/laity and I really hope we can avoid that as pagans. The Gods talk with all of us if we take the time to listen and are careful to avoid traps of believing our own PR.


I don't think I agree with this, at least if I am interpreting you correctly. What's wrong with having professional clergy? Laying aside the question of whether everyone is *able* to have the kind of intimate communication with the Divine that many here on the Cauldron have, you can't ignore the fact that many individuals don't *want* that level of divine intervention in their lives - and some of them really wouldn't do well if it happened to them.
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Juni

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 1683
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
    • http://thelittleseawitch.net
Re: The 'godphone' concept
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2014, 06:53:18 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;147992
I don't think I agree with this, at least if I am interpreting you correctly. What's wrong with having professional clergy? Laying aside the question of whether everyone is *able* to have the kind of intimate communication with the Divine that many here on the Cauldron have, you can't ignore the fact that many individuals don't *want* that level of divine intervention in their lives - and some of them really wouldn't do well if it happened to them.

 
Not to mention that clergy can mean a lot of different things; many Christian clergy members, for example, are not only responsible to their god but for their community. Even if every individual has and wants direct divine communication, that only serves the individual.
Join the Emboatening Crew over on Kiva! Emboatening the boatless since Opet 2013!

The Little Sea Witch - personal/catch-all blog
MistSeeking - religious blog

SunflowerP

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Calgary AB
  • Posts: 8123
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 222
  • Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
    • View Profile
    • If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough
  • Religion: Eclectic religious Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: sie/hir/hirs/hirself
Re: The 'godphone' concept
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2014, 07:04:34 pm »
Quote from: Danyarose;147991
I believe you are right that it is about the ease of connection using phones.

 
I didn't get the impression that Yei was talking about ease of connection, just about the 'long distance' parallel.

From my own experience, and from what I've heard from others (including but not limited to this thread), ease of connection is 'results not typical'.

Sunflower
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

HeartShadow

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2195
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
    • http://www.flamekeeping.org
Re: The 'godphone' concept
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2014, 07:16:10 pm »
Quote from: Juni;147996
Not to mention that clergy can mean a lot of different things; many Christian clergy members, for example, are not only responsible to their god but for their community. Even if every individual has and wants direct divine communication, that only serves the individual.

 
I certainly do enough work-as-clergy that the idea of clergy being "unneeded" seems unlikely.

If it wasn't needed, why would I have to keep doing it? :D:

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3168
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 90
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: The 'godphone' concept
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2014, 07:45:37 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;148001
I certainly do enough work-as-clergy that the idea of clergy being "unneeded" seems unlikely.

If it wasn't needed, why would I have to keep doing it? :D:

 
You mean you're not in it for the prestige and the yarn?
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4805
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 685
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: The 'godphone' concept
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2014, 10:43:50 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;148001
I certainly do enough work-as-clergy that the idea of clergy being "unneeded" seems unlikely.

If it wasn't needed, why would I have to keep doing it? :D:

 
"You busy?"
"Yeah."
"What're you doing?"
"Pastoral counselling again."
"Oh, carry on."

- a frequent conversation around here....
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Faemon

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 1229
  • Total likes: 9
    • View Profile
Re: The 'godphone' concept
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2014, 02:10:24 am »
Quote from: Naomi J;142810
Where did the godphone concept come from? Why is it becoming so prevalent, in eclectic Wiccan-influenced Paganism especially? I keep seeing people saying "I don't have a godphone" or "I want to develop my godphone". I find it absolutely fascinating from a sociological and theological standpoint, as I've not encountered anything similar to this concept in other religions or spiritual paths.

At the church that my mother went to, members of the fellowship would talk all the time about what God said to them. I'd thought that this was a special gift, like prophets or those who witnessed visions like the water of Lourdes, but they really made it out like it was a very mundane everyday thing.

So, I figured that godphone/theophany/UPG-of-a-particular-type was something similar.

Later, my sister and I attended a different church where the preacher said that the voice of God in our own minds might really just be in our own minds and us talking to ourselves...so, to prevent it being self-serving then we should check with other people in the fellowship who hear God.

I didn't think that solved anything. Each and every individual in the fellowship could be hearing something self-serving or at least self-generated/sustained, so checking in with other people can be confusing and only compound the problem. I have developed a similar suspicion about UPG and SPG here in the pagan community, too... but I give equal doubt benefit to those who have wobbled over a line between, "this is real to me" and "this is getting way too real".
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 02:12:50 am by Faemon »
The Codex of Poesy: wishcraft, faelatry, alchemy, and other slight misspellings.
the Otherfaith: Chromatic Genderbending Faery Monarchs of Technology. DeviantArt

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
12 Replies
2901 Views
Last post January 09, 2012, 04:48:29 pm
by corvid04
1 Replies
1973 Views
Last post April 24, 2012, 04:31:06 pm
by Elani Temperance
41 Replies
3668 Views
Last post September 18, 2012, 04:46:37 pm
by Annie Roonie
8 Replies
1212 Views
Last post December 13, 2013, 09:05:54 am
by Izzie414
17 Replies
1743 Views
Last post June 20, 2014, 07:43:42 pm
by EclecticWheel

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 30
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 2
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Co-Hosts:
LyricFox & Randall

Senior Staff:
Darkhawk

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Sunflower

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Board Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, HarpingHawke, Jenett, Morag, rocquelaire, Sefiru

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Reserve Staff:
Aisling

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Cauldron Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]

Site Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]
Webmaster:
Randall