Strength in weakness ( force of experiences )

[Anon100]

I'm posting this as a simple divide to continue a conversation started here ( https://ecauldron.com/forum/magic-and-the-occult-for-beginners/crossroads-on-the-path/15/ ).
It began as an answer to a question but soon became thoughts on the term 'strength in weakness' and diverged.

I'll copy a couple of posts from there onto here and hope to add another once I've got the ok to do so

[Anon100]

I'm posting this as a simple divide to continue a conversation started here ( https://ecauldron.com/forum/magic-and-the-occult-for-beginners/crossroads-on-the-path/15/ ).
It began as an answer to a question but soon became thoughts on the term 'strength in weakness' and diverged.

I'll copy a couple of posts from there onto here and hope to add another once I've got the ok to do so

My two posts..

To find power within yourself you first have to understand and face your own weaknesses. You learn lessons both from your mistakes and your fears. And, by knowing your frailty, you gain insight into the world and other people. That's not to mehtion the fact that you can't really feel the rhythm of life if you can't feel both sides of it.

In Aesops fables there's the story of how a great tree, which stood tall, was blown over in a storm but the grass, which bent over, survived.

I see this as being more than 'nature' based ( although I will say my life is very much part of nature ) or working in the framework of a divine eat or be eaten system. And I certainly don't see myself as expendable.
Balance and using your weaknesses is something I see as individual from religion; from understanding others reactions based on your own experience or feelings, to knowing how power will flow through or over you as you use it. It is the basis of certain martial arts ( as I only know Tai Chi I can't say for all ) because it protects you from overextending and allows you the force and form for the next movement. It's one of the basic rules in physics ( for each action there's an equal and opposit reaction ).

Edit to add: It also can move you to gain experiences and take journeys you would otherwise not have found and even to make you aware of abilities and strengths you otherwise would never have take on.
Also, for me, 'divine' and 'eat or be eaten' aren't necesarily tied together.

[Anon100]

I'm posting this as a simple divide to continue a conversation started here ( https://ecauldron.com/forum/magic-and-the-occult-for-beginners/crossroads-on-the-path/15/ ).
It began as an answer to a question but soon became thoughts on the term 'strength in weakness' and diverged.

I'll copy a couple of posts from there onto here and hope to add another once I've got the ok to do so

And here is Perdita's reply (n I had to copy and paste to save the original quotes so I'm afraid I don't have it quote linked and should note I've high lit the quotes in bold for clarity )

Quote from: PerditaPickle on December 26, 2019, 07:50:08 am
I'm going to create a draft with a view to discussing this some more when I've more time

And here it is.  Hope it's in some way worth the wait 

Quote from: Anon100 on December 25, 2019, 03:38:01 pm
I see this as being more than 'nature' based ( although I will say my life is very much part of nature ) or working in the framework of a divine eat or be eaten system.

Here, I agree with the being part of nature bit; in my outlook, we all are (we are the human animal; we may have evolved to be able to create and use technology & etc but we still originated as just one part of an entire ecosystem and we remain a part of it - until such time as we tip it over the balance point and then we may very well become extinct, but that's another thread...)

In my current path, however, I'm a bit more ambivalent about the notion of the eat or be eaten system.

That's because I don't have a pantheon of benevolent (nor malevolent) deities, but rather a dispassionate universe which doesn't generally involve itself in or even take any notice of the minutiae of our individual existences.

The 'dog eat dog' can creep in because (sadly) it's in large part human nature and often those who do so are able to get ahead of the rest of us, at least temporarily.

That doesn't mean that the universe is out to eat you up - mostly, it doesn't even notice us.  But living in this universe gives a very high probability of experiencing 'dog eat dog', from our fellow mankind (and sometimes just from circumstances).

And this doesn't, in my view, make any of us expendable.  It's just a fact, something we need to be prepared to deal with.

Quote from: Anon100 on December 25, 2019, 03:38:01 pm
Balance and using your weaknesses is something I see as individual from religion

I think it can be independent from religion or incorporated into it, for different people/outlooks.  It depends on lots of variables.  Sometimes, both at once can be true.

Quote from: Anon100 on December 25, 2019, 03:38:01 pm
understanding others reactions based on your own experience or feelings

The above bit might be a separate thread (probably quite a bit of this should actually have been a separate thread - sorry, OP).  I call it, judging others by one's own standards, and it's a behaviour largely to be cautioned against.  Then again, however, it can also help to have empathy with someone if one has also had similar experiences.  Anyways, this is likely to be a long enough ramble as it is...

Quote from: Anon100 on December 25, 2019, 03:38:01 pm
It also can move you to gain experiences and take journeys you would otherwise not have found and even to make you aware of abilities and strengths you otherwise would never have take on.

Agreed - whether you see it as overcoming weaknesses, contending with vulnerabilities or pushing boundaries/limits, I think these are largely different perspectives of the same (or very similar) activity:  the avoidance of stagnation/personal development/the experiencing of life (again, we can all have different terminology for it).

And I also agree, Anon, with what I think you're suggesting, which is, as I interpret it, that those who have to face up to and conquer vulnerabilities can actually become stronger as a result of that experience.  Mandi, I wonder if this is also part of what you were expressing in your later post, too?

Quote from: Mandi_S on Yesterday at 01:02:21 pm
I have to be willing and able to tap that experience to invoke it.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 04:51:51 pm by PerditaPickle »

[Edit to add a layer of quote formating - PerditaPickle]

[Anon100]

And here is Perdita's reply (n I had to copy and paste to save the original quotes so I'm afraid I don't have it quote linked

Ill quote from the original here so there's a link back

And here it is.  Hope it's in some way worth the wait 

Here, I agree with the being part of nature bit; in my outlook, we all are (we are the human animal; we may have evolved to be able to create and use technology & etc but we still originated as just one part of an entire ecosystem and we remain a part of it - until such time as we tip it over the balance point and then we may very well become extinct, but that's another thread...)

In my current path, however, I'm a bit more ambivalent about the notion of the eat or be eaten system.

That's because I don't have a pantheon of benevolent (nor malevolent) deities, but rather a dispassionate universe which doesn't generally involve itself in or even take any notice of the minutiae of our individual existences.

The 'dog eat dog' can creep in because (sadly) it's in large part human nature and often those who do so are able to get ahead of the rest of us, at least temporarily.

That doesn't mean that the universe is out to eat you up - mostly, it doesn't even notice us.  But living in this universe gives a very high probability of experiencing 'dog eat dog', from our fellow mankind (and sometimes just from circumstances).

And this doesn't, in my view, make any of us expendable.  It's just a fact, something we need to be prepared to deal with.

I think it can be independent from religion or incorporated into it, for different people/outlooks.  It depends on lots of variables.  Sometimes, both at once can be true.

It certainly was well worth the wait.

I like your view on nature and our place in it. Mine is rather similar in that I see nature as sort of existing beyond but also integral to us and the deities and forces in our lives.
I have a book called The Way of Wyrd by Brian Bates ( ISBN 0-09-947790-4), its a fantasy book based on a certain amount of historical information with a bibliography at the back stretching 9 pages of text ( refering to Anglo Saxon, folklore and other literature ), I'm not sure how accurate a concept it puts forth over all but it's concept of Wyrd is very similar to how I think of nature.

In my own words.. It's like a woven force which we form from ( to describe in my imagination here ) as those we raised 3d from under the weave, pushing our shape up under it. Others do the same but of course, as we interact, our very prescence will tighten and pull or loosen various cords and threads which changes the pressure on those covering others.
I agree it can be both connected to and beyond deity - to me they too would be attached as part of the changing pressure on the weave but with much more control and power.

'Dog eat dog' is a one sided view I think as, for the most part, nature is designed to cause creation and evolution. Yes, that means death and destruction too but, as you said, the whole 'dog eat dog' concept is more largely based on current human concepts and ways of thinking ( I say current as I've got curious about the old concept of kings being tied to the land [ and consequently to the well being of the land and those that dwell within ] which works on a principal I would see as almost opposite the dog eat dog one ).

And I agree on the expendable point too..
When death is rife, then life is an even more valuable shining gem.

[Anon100]

And here is Perdita's reply (n I had to copy and paste to save the original quotes so I'm afraid I don't have it quote linked and should note I've high lit the quotes in bold for clarity )

And quoting back to the original

I think it can be independent from religion or incorporated into it, for different people/outlooks.  It depends on lots of variables.  Sometimes, both at once can be true.

The above bit might be a separate thread (probably quite a bit of this should actually have been a separate thread - sorry, OP).  I call it, judging others by one's own standards, and it's a behaviour largely to be cautioned against.  Then again, however, it can also help to have empathy with someone if one has also had similar experiences.  Anyways, this is likely to be a long enough ramble as it is...

Agreed - whether you see it as overcoming weaknesses, contending with vulnerabilities or pushing boundaries/limits, I think these are largely different perspectives of the same (or very similar) activity:  the avoidance of stagnation/personal development/the experiencing of life (again, we can all have different terminology for it). 

And I also agree, Anon, with what I think you're suggesting, which is, as I interpret it, that those who have to face up to and conquer vulnerabilities can actually become stronger as a result of that experience.  Mandi, I wonder if this is also part of what you were expressing in your later post, too?

Hmm yes, I can see how that danger of judging others can follow from that, it's the scarred flip side so to speak.
I guess there are a number of qualifying points I should make as to how I find my weaknesses help me view others. For a start I always have a worry at the back of my mind that I'm not good enough ( a scar from my youth ) and am strongly aware that I can never know how my pains and hardships compare to others. For me this means that when I look at others I always assume on instinct that they are facing more than me.
I use my own weaknesses and my experiences of how hard getting through certain things was as a way to try to understand if or how to give support and to still myself when people seem to find things really hard ( and yes there are times when I have to fight myself because I think 'well that bits really easy', I'm human after all Luckily my loved ones have and keep reminding me in being themselves, that I can't always see a weakness ). It gives me a rough idea of what others may be facing and may need.

It sounds like you had more thoughts on this and I would love to hear them

And yes, gaining strength from facing your vulnerabilities is deffinitely part of what what I was wanting to convey.
As an additional thought along that line - It's easy to ignore the value of a strength when you've had it all your life but if you've had to fight for it you also learn the value of it and gain more of an over all feel for its form and limits

[PerditaPickle]

And here is Perdita's reply (n I had to copy and paste to save the original quotes so I'm afraid I don't have it quote linked and should note I've high lit the quotes in bold for clarity )

Goodness, you've worked quite hard to create this thread incorporating the original 'inspiration'.  I've edited, as you may have noticed, to add a layer of quote formatting and I hope that's felt to be helpful, though what you'd done with the bolding was effective.

[PerditaPickle]

I like your view on nature and our place in it. Mine is rather similar in that I see nature as sort of existing beyond but also integral to us and the deities and forces in our lives.
I have a book called The Way of Wyrd by Brian Bates ( ISBN 0-09-947790-4), its a fantasy book based on a certain amount of historical information with a bibliography at the back stretching 9 pages of text ( refering to Anglo Saxon, folklore and other literature ), I'm not sure how accurate a concept it puts forth over all but it's concept of Wyrd is very similar to how I think of nature.

In my own words.. It's like a woven force which we form from ( to describe in my imagination here ) as those we raised 3d from under the weave, pushing our shape up under it. Others do the same but of course, as we interact, our very prescence will tighten and pull or loosen various cords and threads which changes the pressure on those covering others.
I agree it can be both connected to and beyond deity - to me they too would be attached as part of the changing pressure on the weave but with much more control and power.

'Dog eat dog' is a one sided view I think as, for the most part, nature is designed to cause creation and evolution. Yes, that means death and destruction too but, as you said, the whole 'dog eat dog' concept is more largely based on current human concepts and ways of thinking ( I say current as I've got curious about the old concept of kings being tied to the land [ and consequently to the well being of the land and those that dwell within ] which works on a principal I would see as almost opposite the dog eat dog one ).

Some interesting points here, again - it might take me a little while to tease out some of my own responses to these, I think (honestly, I'm not just doing this on purpose to try and create anticipation!)

I realise (in retrospect) that the 'dog eat dog' phrasing had been mine within the original thread which this one takes inspiration from - this had originally been referred to as 'eat or be eaten' and there's a subtle difference, though I don't know how (or if) this might have altered your responses.

[Anon100]

Some interesting points here, again - it might take me a little while to tease out some of my own responses to these, I think (honestly, I'm not just doing this on purpose to try and create anticipation!)

I realise (in retrospect) that the 'dog eat dog' phrasing had been mine within the original thread which this one takes inspiration from - this had originally been referred to as 'eat or be eaten' and there's a subtle difference, though I don't know how (or if) this might have altered your responses.

Firstly, thank you for the editing, it makes the post work better
Second, I look forward to your responses

I think dog eat dog has led to an interesting area for me - the difference between fighting against all comers ( maybe even the land itself ) to reach the top vs the idea that being at the top is only by the power of all below ( and the land ) holding you up.. It's a concept of power/responsibility balance.
Eat or be eaten... Can't argue with that so much. Sometimes in nature it is a case of who doesn't die wins. However, even so, survival is better guaranteed in groups/ packs etc. Also with survival being tied to evolution, the aim to make sure the next generation survives also leads to a wider view

[Anon100]

I'll copy a couple of posts from there onto here and hope to add another once I've got the ok to do so

And here are the comment that started the discussion which led to this thread and the next post, also from Mandi S

Thing is, great power requires great vulnerability.  My best tools are the ones that I've sharpened on myself and learned to handle carefully.

So maybe if he were willing, a thorough self inventory of what emotional resources he has, can he ride the whole range(?) might be a starting point to expand his mental flexibility to a place where commitment isn't so scary and the hard boundaries soften?

snip

Where is his mercy and maybe start there.

and

I am tickled that lots of people have spins on this and if I recognize I'm being addressed, spelling and pronouns do not obstruct our communication.  I don't mind being either or.  He she it... No worries.

Visualization - I don't know if the academics and literature still put the same focus on training the minds eye and visualization.  Lucid dreaming.  Find your hands, become aware of your starting point, hear the song.  You have to build your tools.  Make your plan.

You can't make what you don't have the ingredients for. 

Vast oversimplification.

If I don't have peace and comfort in me, I can't give it to anyone else.  The frantic young mother who gets stuck in a feedback cycle with her crying infant breaks it by finding the peace in herself and pouring it out for her child.

If I want to build the Minotaurs maze, I need to know and feel the exact dimensions of the walls and hear the breath of the bull.  If I want someone peeing scared I have to know the fear that loosens a bladder.

I'm only as effective as what I've experienced.  Can only cut as deep as I've been cut and healed from.  Can only do from a distance what I'd be willing to do in person. 

I don't use the same format as many ritual practitioners, so how you believe your will is being manifested probably has something to do with that.  I'm not invoking Deity.  I don't believe any particular deity is validating my will or is getting involved in my human affairs.  I don't ask God to bless the body count just to keep me counting.

The collective power of one human life's experiences. 

I have to be willing and able to tap that experience to invoke it. 

So having emotionally off limits zones are dead wood in a live tree trying to pull water to make fruit.  (Not liking that analogy but words fail.)


That's why I asked what his mercy might be.  The thing you wouldn't harm knowingly.  What would cause you pain to be the cause of pain to.  That's your brakes.

[Anon100]

And here are the comment that started the discussion which led to this thread and the next post, also from Mandi S

I am tickled that lots of people have spins on this and if I recognize I'm being addressed, spelling and pronouns do not obstruct our communication.  I don't mind being either or.  He she it... No worries.

It's an interesting subject . That's ok then, thank you

Visualization - I don't know if the academics and literature still put the same focus on training the minds eye and visualization.  Lucid dreaming.  Find your hands, become aware of your starting point, hear the song.  You have to build your tools.  Make your plan.

I certainly learnt meditation and visualizing during meditation but that was in a specific meditation group ( as opposed to of a faith or religion etc.. ) so I don't know how widely it's focused on in other areas. I also get the impression that what you're talking of is more specifically a walk through ones own being. Stilling your mind to hear what has been hidden within? Stopping so that you can see the path you've walked and the one you face?
 

You can't make what you don't have the ingredients for. 

Vast oversimplification.

If I don't have peace and comfort in me, I can't give it to anyone else.  The frantic young mother who gets stuck in a feedback cycle with her crying infant breaks it by finding the peace in herself and pouring it out for her child.

If I want to build the Minotaurs maze, I need to know and feel the exact dimensions of the walls and hear the breath of the bull.  If I want someone peeing scared I have to know the fear that loosens a bladder.

I'm only as effective as what I've experienced.  Can only cut as deep as I've been cut and healed from.  Can only do from a distance what I'd be willing to do in person. 

I don't use the same format as many ritual practitioners, so how you believe your will is being manifested probably has something to do with that.  I'm not invoking Deity.  I don't believe any particular deity is validating my will or is getting involved in my human affairs.  I don't ask God to bless the body count just to keep me counting.

The collective power of one human life's experiences. 

I have to be willing and able to tap that experience to invoke it. 

So having emotionally off limits zones are dead wood in a live tree trying to pull water to make fruit.  (Not liking that analogy but words fail.)


That's why I asked what his mercy might be.  The thing you wouldn't harm knowingly.  What would cause you pain to be the cause of pain to.  That's your brakes.

So I agree on a lot of this and what I don't know first hand makes sense and feels right. However, as someone who has limited experience of using magic ( and none in any organised way ) I would ask about this - Is magic for you limited to experience or is there a point you can use imagination for?
I imagine that there must be an additional balance for those people invoking a deity during any magic as well ( I'm sure someone will answer this though I understand it's not something you've dealt with ) in that you have to be careful as you're invoking a thinking entity that would have its own desires/purpose/opinions?

Also, being a gardener I like and appreciate the tree analogy. I know with dead wood the branch can continue to die back due to the blockage at the end, and in emotions sometimes having something supressed will start having damaging impact on other areas. I presume there would also be that danger?

[Mandi_S]

I'm posting this as a simple divide to continue a conversation started here ( https://ecauldron.com/forum/magic-and-the-occult-for-beginners/crossroads-on-the-path/15/ ).
It began as an answer to a question but soon became thoughts on the term 'strength in weakness' and diverged.

I'll copy a couple of posts from there onto here and hope to add another once I've got the ok to do so

I'm going general since there's a lot of ground in here.

I am not rich.  I am not famous.  My Will does not fly through the universe uncontested.  That's my fine print.  Recreational use, its not a guarantee and it's not free. 

I use Order and Disorder as elements.

I absolutely believe we can harm ourselves with our own good intentions. 

This is how I can let seemingly oppositional faiths play together.  The debt to chaos gets paid by the conflict and conflict can generate some interesting and unknown options and exciting energy.

Some people like to break those down even more, making order and disorder constructive and destructive.

I don't because that's a relative personal judgement in a universe that doesn't care about what serves me or doesn't serve me so I leave those out.

How you believe your will manifests is a key bit here.  What intermediaries carry this energy and what liens do they put on it?  Does it arrive as you sent it?  Is it like a 401k with an employer contribution?  Is it a row of dominos?  What is the mechanism?

That is going to give different paths necessarily different answers.

So.  That said, how vulnerable do you become when working for a given outcome?

Are you willing to feel a deep loss or a passionate anger again to generate the emotional state that allows you to do your will?

If not where does that energy come from?

In some paths, every thought we have is a little bit of magic.  You can't un-think a thought.  It's forever bouncing around working on other thoughts till it runs it's course.

People screw themselves royally, draining themselves out with accidental thoughts and cursing.  In traffic, at work, to autodialers even!!! 

I'm sort of amazed by it.  Someone is raising their energy to shout at a machine.  I'm too tired for all of that.

There is a twisted little part of me that likes the taste of those who give away their energy so easily.  They are almost bottomless and they're like clockwork. 

People who do this are passively consenting to be batteries for anybody who can keep them annoyed.  Keep sending energy!  You're paying my disorder debt!  (One of the vulnerabilities.
If you can be annoyed or otherwise compelled to feel, you can be managed. )

Its polite to give a warning first.  Hey there, don't leak on me.  I feel what you're doing and I'm going to take steps to manage it.  If they don't stop...

So stop that.  Ha.  Lol.  Save it for when you really mean it.  For when you have no choice but to put it on your bill.

How many painfully stupid things have I done?

LOTS!!!  Whew!  Hoooo boy! 

Nice part is in stopping those little energy hiccups, you recognize what your gut is doing when it happens and can do it on purpose or not when you choose. 

Bonus, if you start rationing annoyance - or impulses in general - you save up that energy.  That guy in traffic didn't even feel it but it gave you a headache or the guy rented space in your head for an hour.  Skip the headache.

This might be more pronounced in projects that a polarized +/- system would probably have lots of good warnings against.  So I already go in with a pay to play attitude.

I tend to lean on quotable quotes and paraphrase that we're all doing magic constantly.  Let's not be accidental.

Someone deliberately sending their personal ORDER is like an invitation.  It's assuming the universe wants more order.

For example, sending Order against a political figure who is a product of Disorder would drain you.  You personally cannot hold all the disorder in the universe.  I'm not trying to be political, but I think that for example; Greta, the activist is in a very dangerous place from an energy perspective.  I'm scared for her.  The pain of that clash coming home to live in her head could be devastating.  All of the things outside of the order declared are still fighting for their existence.

No matter how deep or true your love, the act of forcing the manifestation has a cost and a backlash.

[PerditaPickle]

Sometimes in nature it is a case of who doesn't die wins. However, even so, survival is better guaranteed in groups/ packs etc.

This brings us nicely back around to the central strength out of weakness topic of this thread, I think - I say this because I also subscribe to the view that there's strength in numbers, but being a part of any community also means to allow oneself to be vulnerable to the other members of that community.  Whenever we're close to someone (romantically or platonically) we're exposing our weaknesses to them (along with all the other facets of ourselves) and there's the chance that things can go wrong & we can get hurt.  It's part of life, and it's part of what makes us us, over time.  And I also subscribe to the view that such experiences, while we may wish to try and avoid the unpleasantness of going through them at the time (if we could), they do ultimately make us stronger in the long run.

[Mandi_S]

I certainly learnt meditation and visualizing during meditation but that was in a specific meditation group ( as opposed to of a faith or religion etc.. ) so I don't know how widely it's focused on in other areas. I also get the impression that what you're talking of is more specifically a walk through ones own being. Stilling your mind to hear what has been hidden within? Stopping so that you can see the path you've walked and the one you face?
 
So I agree on a lot of this and what I don't know first hand makes sense and feels right. However, as someone who has limited experience of using magic ( and none in any organised way ) I would ask about this - Is magic for you limited to experience or is there a point you can use imagination for?

I imagine that there must be an additional balance for those people invoking a deity during any magic as well ( I'm sure someone will answer this though I understand it's not something you've dealt with ) in that you have to be careful as you're invoking a thinking entity that would have its own desires/purpose/opinions?

Also, being a gardener I like and appreciate the tree analogy. I know with dead wood the branch can continue to die back due to the blockage at the end, and in emotions sometimes having something supressed will start having damaging impact on other areas. I presume there would also be that danger?

Yes and yes and yes to the tree.  Exactly what I was thinking of.  Anything beyond the block gets choked out.

Visualization is just that every single possible outcome is drawn in detail to the most minute detail you can envision.

Sometimes I draw free hand but when I'm doing something complex I prefer to work from a model or a photograph.  Draw what you see.

If you can't visualize it, or if you're insulating yourself from what you want to manifest, you aren't guiding it.

You gotta know what you want.

I've worked in theistic based paths over the years, but I didn't believe in my ability to believe.  That faith is a kind of magic already.  I had to ask myself when that magic was active in my life and how and why.  When was belief a joy?

So visualizing for me is all of these interconnected threads that pull on each other.

You can visualize bout anything.  My original use was building your body so you can put yourself in the first person in any other visualization you build.

Lucid dreaming uses the same concept.

Castaneda did a lot of work with the same concept as the Dream Body.

While his sourcing may be dubious, his methodology for building the body has some gems.


You could build pleasant or unpleasant things, but it's not reality TV.  Does anyone really need to feel what it's like to do something you would find repulsive to do with their own two hands?  That's the vulnerability maybe.  The feeling of driving over roadkill is enough gristle for me. Knowing what it costs.

I think people can get desensitized to that and that's a spiritual cost as well.  Leaving a swath of destruction and broken people in a wake behind eventually gets to be a bit of a downer.  People tend not to enjoy being screwed with.  Bad mental hygiene.


On a more positive note,
The same visualization tool makes a list of possible outcomes that could be enhanced, thoroughly examining each one and following them to their respective horizons and brings them closer to being bringing them into focus.

La Huesera, the bone woman does it with a drum.  She assembles the bones, takes out her drum, smokes a bit and starts to play the heartbeat.  Then she starts to sing, flesh flesh flesh... and suddenly it springs to life and runs back to the forest.  She's not making the matter, just guiding the form through Will and connecting to the already existing patterns.

I'm not sure how that could be used in a primarily theistic path.  How deities work in a magical practice is confusing to me. 



For me, deity is the matter we see and don't see and how we interact limited by our human perception.  The molecules in my table even.

I like the Catholic system, it's got sensory appeal, it's imperfect, it's human, but I don't feel any system mediated by humans - myself included - can define the mind of the sentient universe.

[SunflowerP]

I'm posting this as a simple divide to continue a conversation started here....

A Reminder:

Hi, everyone, I've locked this thread TEMPORARILY, while I figure out how best to make it less messy. PERDITA, I'll note that, because you're staff, you are still able to post to it; please don't, though. ANON100, I'll provide you with details on what the issues are and how they could have been avoided, later. I want to emphasize that NO ONE IS IN TROUBLE; no rules have been violated. All that's happened is that people have taken initiative (a good thing!) but with unintended consequences. Sunflower TC Forum Host

[SunflowerP]

I've locked this thread TEMPORARILY, while I figure out how best to make it less messy.
<snip>
ANON100, I'll provide you with details on what the issues are and how they could have been avoided, later.

Okay, unlocked; I decided not to do anything, since the convo has reasonably successfully progressed past the messy bit.

Anon, and anyone, for future reference: Usually the best way to spin off a new thread is to just include, in the OP of the thread, a link to a pertinent post in the original thread. In a case like this, in which you wanted some of the posts from the original thread in the new thread, the best way to go about it is to ask staff to split the thread. If you report the post that's chronologically first of the ones you want in the new thread, and say in the comment box what you'd like done, that will ensure that the first staff member to see your report, and who knows how to split a thread, can handle it. (Alternately, you can report a different post in the sequence - such as one in which the people affected are agreeing that a new thread is a good idea - and include the post numbers of the posts you want split off in your comment.)

Sunflower