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Author Topic: Refining my concepts of Deity and update on path: any thoughts?  (Read 351 times)

EclecticWheel

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I just wanted to put some thoughts out here on Deity and deities and would be interested in any feedback from your own traditions, other traditions you may be interested in, or any other ideas.  I would also like to describe where I'm at religiously these days.

I have recently changed my religious status on the forum.  Having been prevented from attending eucharist most of the time due to my schedule, some spiritual priorities were simply cast in a different perspective.  I briefly considered (a broader) conception of Catholicism (and wasn't sure whether to veer Roman or Anglo), especially after the traditonal Latin mass became the easiest service for me to attend.

After hearing a ranting "homily" about the wickedness and depravity of trans people (and indirectly, gay people) in that setting I made my mind up that, while I have traditionalist Catholic friends who are very creative and adept theologically in coming to more compassionate conclusions, I do not want to deal with this kind of baggage.  I don't fault the entire tradition since there are numerous resources within it for coming to different conclusions, and people do so, and some affirming Catholics are downright saintly in my view.  But this is my choice, I have made up my mind, and I don't frown on others who come to different choices.  Let each one do what is conducive to that individual's flourishing, I say.

Regarding liberal and (self-described) esoteric Christianity as a whole, since I have retained my community connections through friendships, and since I cannot make it to church often, I simply decided I didn't want to wrestle with that tradition anymore, and I've gone in my own direction.  It's not that I don't feel welcomed even with my eccentricities in the community -- I've always been made to feel welcome to fellowship and altar in my Episcopal parish, and without having to hide my beliefs.  I just don't feel like putting the energy into wrestling with a tradition that is very different from my private path.

That said, I will always hold in my heart a fondness for this tradition without which I could have never forged my own path in the direction it has taken today.  I do not feel that I have lost anything, but rather that I have been given a gift that continues to flourish.  I have felt no need to mourn, but rather rejoice.

As to my still-developing notions of Deity, I have long identified with pantheism in some way, shape, or form.  In some contexts this path does not lend itself to devotion, though, and I gather that there are different senses to pantheism.  I dropped the term because my approach is a bit too complicated to convey in a simple one word term.

When I refer to the Ama-Father (Mother-Father is what I mean), the Father, the Mother, or God (with a capital G), I am not really referring to Yahweh, who for me is a distinct god of his own.  I am referring to the One (the interconnected whole, thus the "oneness" part) or what I may refer to as the All, the source of our existences (thus the parental imagery).

I am not sure that the One or the All is not impersonal, but given its mysterious nature and the presence of reported experiences of the numinous (and perhaps even a transcendent aspect to reality?), given the reality of this enigma of consciousness that we report experiencing, I do not tend to treat the All as merely inanimate matter.  Experientally it is more than that for me, and to respond to that something "more," whatever that "more" is, which I believe is involved in consciousness and experiences of the numinous, I do address it as encompassing a personal dimension, thus my reference to the "Ama-Father."  I am a person, so I tend to see a person in Ultimate Reality as well.

The Ama-Father for me is androgynous, beyond mere appearances of good and evil, and everything that we experience whether we perceive it as good or evil is a part of this Ama-Father.  The whole of reality including any numinous or transcendent dimension(s) as well as the mundane is encompassed by the Ama-Father.

Now I am not overly familiar with Wicca since after doing some reading on that path early on in my teenage years its emphasis (at least in the materials I read) on male-female polarity and fertility just didn't ring a bell for me, but I've been poking around on the interwebs very recently and coming across some similarities in some Wiccans' conceptions of the All.  But this is a matter I am still needing to research, as well as the Hindu concepts of Brahman.

Right now what I am developing in regard to my beliefs about Deity in the sense of the All is based largely on my own introspection, so I need to put that out there, and I would be interested in further reading if anyone has any recommendations on this topic.  I do believe in research in developing my spirituality, and I know that is important on the cauldron.  But on some spiritual matters I tend to intuit first, then do research, and if and when I find similarities in other paths with my intuitions, this is a sort of confirmation for me and opportunity to further develop my ideas and intuitions more coherently.  So that's how I go about this.  It can be a slow process, but I enjoy it.  Some intuitions I discard upon research, others are confirmed.

One thing I have come across in Wicca is the idea that all gods are one god and all goddesses are one goddess.  This is incompatible with my beliefs.  Although the All is a One in the sense of a Whole, there are still distinct parts within that Whole.  We are distinct beings, albeit interdependent.  I may eat a good meal, but that won't feed the world.  So while the gods -- whatever their nature is, I do not take firm positions on these matters other than affirming that there is a "matter" that we are dealing with in some way, shape, or form -- may be manifestations of the All in particular forms, as every being and thing is in some way, I do not believe they are all one except insofar as everything and every being is interdependent.  Interdependence does not negate individuality.

That's all I have time for at the moment.  Any commentary, personal insights, or research recommendations would be greatly appreciated!  As always, thanks for reading.
My personal moral code:

Love wisely, and do what thou wilt.

Jenett

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Re: Refining my concepts of Deity and update on path: any thoughts?
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2019, 07:24:12 pm »
One thing I have come across in Wicca is the idea that all gods are one god and all goddesses are one goddess.

Very very briefly - this particular statement comes from Dion Fortune, who was an occultist, but by no means Wiccan. (It's also only a partial quote: the original is "All gods are one God, and all goddesses are one Goddess, and there is one Initiator." in the context of a work of esoteric fiction, The Sea Priestess that is talking about a very specific lens.

It should not be taken as as statement of Wiccan approaches, or practices (nor of many of the derivations thereof, though some Wiccan-derived paths do more with it than, y'know, nothing.)

I may have other thoughts later (probably not tonight, got other things I need to do), but wanted to clarify this one first.
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Jainarayan

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Re: Refining my concepts of Deity and update on path: any thoughts?
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2019, 10:59:10 am »
...Any commentary, personal insights, or research recommendations would be greatly appreciated!  As always, thanks for reading.

I had a whole point by point response typed. The browser ate it before I thought to save.  :'(  Anyway, briefly...

I don't know why Christianity is so fixated and obsessed with sexuality and what we do with our boy and girl parts. Whatever the reason I think it's enormously unhealthy. It's one of several factors that drove me away from the Roman Catholic Church, which I was born into, then the Eastern Orthodox Church, which I found to be no better than the RCC. Again, whatever the reason. I'm glad it happened. I had my times of bhakti, devotion, to Jesus but I came to view him (still do) as a yogi, bodhisattva, guru, rishi (sage), or other along those lines. Maybe even a demi-god or deva. Maybe he is a full manifestation of God, I'm not sure.

There's an Indian saying jāki rahi bhāvanā jaisi / prabhu mūrat dekhi tin taisi meaning "The way one perceives God, He will appear in that very same way to the devotee". The Rig Veda says ekam sat viprāha bahudhā vadanti, "There is One Truth, the sages call it [by] many names". Very universal, as Hinduism is on the whole. So, it ties into the belief that there is only one God, Being, Source, what-have-you that manifests variously and almost innumerably. We're largely monist, it only appears we're polytheistic because that One, i.e. Brahman, does take independent forms. We are Brahman and we are independent, yes? The scriptures say things like aham brahmāsmi (I am Brahman), sarvam khalvidam brahma (all this [we experience] verily is Brahman), and many other sayings (mahāvākyāni - "great sayings").

So, your beliefs and direction are not without precedent. ;)

śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ
Vishnu's appearance is Shiva; Shiva's appearance is Vishnu
Vishnu is the heart of Shiva; Shiva is the heart of Vishnu - Skandopanishad
 

EclecticWheel

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Re: Refining my concepts of Deity and update on path: any thoughts?
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2019, 03:24:08 pm »
Very very briefly - this particular statement comes from Dion Fortune, who was an occultist, but by no means Wiccan. (It's also only a partial quote: the original is "All gods are one God, and all goddesses are one Goddess, and there is one Initiator." in the context of a work of esoteric fiction, The Sea Priestess that is talking about a very specific lens.

It should not be taken as as statement of Wiccan approaches, or practices (nor of many of the derivations thereof, though some Wiccan-derived paths do more with it than, y'know, nothing.)

I may have other thoughts later (probably not tonight, got other things I need to do), but wanted to clarify this one first.

Thank you.  Would this view be more common in those identifying with Wicca outside of the traditional lineages which may be where I have picked up on this? It is something I have come across often, including from some identifying as Wiccan (but not with lineages), though I have heard/read of other approaches as well.

I am admittedly not terribly familiar with Wicca or its derivatives.  I've also heard the Rede misrepresented often, including, again, by some identifying as Wiccan, so I'm not exactly sure where to look for better information on Wiccan views of divinity.
My personal moral code:

Love wisely, and do what thou wilt.

Sefiru

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Re: Refining my concepts of Deity and update on path: any thoughts?
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2019, 06:43:29 pm »
I will always hold in my heart a fondness for this tradition without which I could have never forged my own path in the direction it has taken today.  I do not feel that I have lost anything, but rather that I have been given a gift that continues to flourish.  I have felt no need to mourn, but rather rejoice.

Have you spent much time looking into any Christianity-adjacent mythoses? In descending order of seriousness:
- Gnosticism
- Arthurian mysteries
- Templar mythos
- (In a pop-culture paganism vein) Assassin's Creed

It would be a different perspective on familiar traditions. Or something.


Quote
The Ama-Father for me is androgynous, beyond mere appearances of good and evil, and everything that we experience whether we perceive it as good or evil is a part of this Ama-Father.  The whole of reality including any numinous or transcendent dimension(s) as well as the mundane is encompassed by the Ama-Father.

Aside from Hinduism, I think kabbalah also includes a similar concept?

Altair

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Re: Refining my concepts of Deity and update on path: any thoughts?
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2019, 07:26:31 pm »
Any commentary, personal insights, or research recommendations would be greatly appreciated!  As always, thanks for reading.

Only commentary/personal insight, in that I share the view you describe of an all-encompassing One. I think perhaps I put more emphasis on the immanence of the One--that it (or as I prefer when I personify it, She) is manifest physically in us and everything else. There is no separation between us and the divine.

I also share the beliefs that Jainarayan spells out above for Hinduism. Many things--from us to the individual deities--are part of the One, without that meaning that we're all the same thing.

I tried to express my understanding of oneness, through myth:

Quote
“You see a lake, but in those waters I see all existence.... And dancing on that surface, the light reflects amid the dark in a million tiny flashes. That is what you are: your lifetime a mere moment’s flash of light, your self a brief optical illusion. For all the dazzle on the surface, the water remains a seamless whole. There is no you, and no other, any more than you can point to a single drop within that great water.”

Paladin felt small and suddenly fearful of drowning. “Are we that insignificant?”

“Yes. And that dazzling. Behold.”

He watched the lake glitter in a cascade of light, mesmerized. “Beautiful,” he murmured.

“Such is Unu’s song.”

Her golden voice uttered it with such reverence, he tried to imagine what greater voice could humble it so.

The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

EclecticWheel

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Re: Refining my concepts of Deity and update on path: any thoughts?
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2019, 03:17:40 pm »
Have you spent much time looking into any Christianity-adjacent mythoses? In descending order of seriousness:
- Gnosticism
- Arthurian mysteries
- Templar mythos
- (In a pop-culture paganism vein) Assassin's Creed

It would be a different perspective on familiar traditions. Or something.


Aside from Hinduism, I think kabbalah also includes a similar concept?

Only Gnosticism, but I don't think I would have thought of Assassin's Creed!  I'll check it out.
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EclecticWheel

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Re: Refining my concepts of Deity and update on path: any thoughts?
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2019, 03:55:11 pm »
Only commentary/personal insight, in that I share the view you describe of an all-encompassing One. I think perhaps I put more emphasis on the immanence of the One--that it (or as I prefer when I personify it, She) is manifest physically in us and everything else. There is no separation between us and the divine.

I also share the beliefs that Jainarayan spells out above for Hinduism. Many things--from us to the individual deities--are part of the One, without that meaning that we're all the same thing.

I tried to express my understanding of oneness, through myth:

I am still working out different interpretations of transcendence.  It doesn't really exclude immanence even in Christianity.

But as an aside I've been looking into a concept referred to as "lateral transcendence," and also pondering the idea that a transcendent aspect to Reality could mean that the web of relationships transcends my individuality even as I am embedded within it, and in special graced moments that transcendent aspect becomes experiential.

Here is an article on lateral transcendence.

http://enfolding.org/some-reflections-on-transcendence-ii/
My personal moral code:

Love wisely, and do what thou wilt.

Jenett

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Re: Refining my concepts of Deity and update on path: any thoughts?
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2019, 06:58:36 pm »
Thank you.  Would this view be more common in those identifying with Wicca outside of the traditional lineages which may be where I have picked up on this? It is something I have come across often, including from some identifying as Wiccan (but not with lineages), though I have heard/read of other approaches as well.

Yep. (It's much more common in Neo-Wiccan material and related stuff, i.e. 'things people are deriving from public materials about initiatory Wicca, sometimes rather inaccurately'.) Those things may or may not work for the people doing them, but assuming that they're a general thing in Wicca is ... complicated.

Quote
I am admittedly not terribly familiar with Wicca or its derivatives.  I've also heard the Rede misrepresented often, including, again, by some identifying as Wiccan, so I'm not exactly sure where to look for better information on Wiccan views of divinity.

A lot of it, frankly, is stuff that isn't in published sources, because it's both personal and often quite individual. You can find a sampling of approaches in a book edited by Judy Harrow, called Devoted To You (essays by four people - I think three of them are witches and the other isn't, but I might be misremembering, and my copy needs replacing.)

Some Wiccans (including initiatory trad Wiccans) think that there is a greater divine power behind the named deities (you'll sometimes see this referred to as the Dryghten, which is an uncommon enough word to make a useful search term), but in practice most of the people I've met are either moderately hard polytheists (different names imply different deities, with their own preferences, personalities, and interests), or at least mostly treating the different names we have separately in practice. (A number of people feel that the deities emmanate from that divine source, but more in the way that humans have parents as a source: the individual kids are still individuals, not part of the amorphous parental unit.)

(There are places where things are more squishy - some deities have really close cognates across cultures, some cultures created combinations (Sulis-Minerva, for example), some deities might be the same deity with multiple names (Inanna/Ishtar/Asherah, etc.) but in practice 'I use the name this deity has indicated and go from there' is usually a reasonable starting point.)
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Noctua

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Re: Refining my concepts of Deity and update on path: any thoughts?
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2019, 07:10:20 pm »
Thank you.  Would this view be more common in those identifying with Wicca outside of the traditional lineages which may be where I have picked up on this? It is something I have come across often, including from some identifying as Wiccan (but not with lineages), though I have heard/read of other approaches as well.

I am admittedly not terribly familiar with Wicca or its derivatives.  I've also heard the Rede misrepresented often, including, again, by some identifying as Wiccan, so I'm not exactly sure where to look for better information on Wiccan views of divinity.

So let me preface this by saying that I recently Dedicated to Blue Star, one specific tradition of Wicca that traces its lineage back to Alexandrian and American Welsh traditions, so what I can say about beliefs on Deity are not only specific just to that tradition but may not even be universal to Blue Star as a whole and is just what our High Priestess teaches, since all our covens/groves are essentially autonomous pieces of a larger whole.

The Wiccans I know (all 6 of them!) adamantly do not ascribe to the "all gods are one god" credo. In fact, we had a line about that in one of our liturgical songs (which you can find the original versions of on Youtube) that we've changed to remove that line. Most of my grove are pretty hard polytheists. I'm still on the fence of soft polytheism myself, because I haven't really had much in the way of experiences that would sway me one way or the other. Both of these worldviews fit because we're not as big on having Things You Should Believe but just Things You Should Do.

Our particular grove, and many others in Blue Star, are also moving away from the Male/Female dichotomy that's central to older iterations of Wicca- e.g. the Great Rite. When we do the Symbolic Great Rite in ritual, we call on paired and opposing forces, using whichever is most appropriate for what we're doing; the most common one we use is light/darkness but we've also used life/death, order/chaos, and on some occasions (like most recently Beltane) do still use man/woman. The main reason for this is that a) we recognize that Nature and Deity is a lot more complex than just a man/woman pairing and want to invoke all the possible iterations of Them and b) we have a lot of folks on the LGBTQ+ spectrum for whom "penis in vagina" is not meaningful symbolism.

kateshortforbob

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Re: Refining my concepts of Deity and update on path: any thoughts?
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2019, 07:33:26 pm »
That's all I have time for at the moment.  Any commentary, personal insights, or research recommendations would be greatly appreciated!  As always, thanks for reading.
This post is the reason I stopped lurking and registered. I went through something like this years ago when trying to join various Asatru groups and discussions. I never really fit in and did everything wrong, apparently. I started pouring out drinks for Loki when I was....maybe 14 or so. Much later I learned very fast and quite harshly that there's no evidence that Loki was actually worshiped and I should stop if I was serious about Asatru, but I kept doing it anyway. Plus there were a lot of books I was told I had to read to be correct in my practice and such. I have over the years read many of these books and they did influence me but didn't stop me from my Loki worship.

My attitude went from, oh, shit I'm doing it wrong, It's not valid! to, I don't give a shit if it's wrong, it's valid to me! I build my own path around my new attitude and it's fulfilling for me, but it's not Asatru, and that's OK.

In my early twenties my interest veered into chaos magick and again I was told that it's a big no-no in Asatru. And again I kept right on doing it. I eventually stopped calling myself Asatru because there is lore and source books that are fairly comprehensive and I didn't want to give a new person to Asatru, or someone seeking a path, that I was a correct representation. Instead, I opted to call myself a Norse Pagan and a general disclaimer that I am not Asatru or Heathen in any way shape or form. I am mostly a Lokean with heavy swirl of Norse Paganism. I don't ignore the Aesir and the Vanir, but I don't include them in anything outside of the holidays.

Basically I can empathise with the realisation that a path you were walking just isn't for you, and you don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water. Many of the things I learned, like a blot and Heathen holidays - the McNallen ones, I still do. Honouring the ancestors and things of that sort. I don't want to reconstruct anything though. My magick stuff is not separate either, and I've never been smacked by any deity for it. Loki is the reason I dipped my toe into chaos magick years ago.

My only personal insight is don't turn into a magpie. Be mindful when pulling from other sources if creating your own path. I consider my "brand" of Norse Paganism self created and not representative of Asatru or Heathenry in the least.

To sum up: I feel you.

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