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Author Topic: Peace On Earth  (Read 2709 times)

Donal2018

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Peace On Earth
« on: December 15, 2018, 02:46:40 pm »
I am trying to learn more about nonviolence and peace studies. I was wondering if your pagan spirituality addresses these topics at all? I am interested in ahimsa, the Indian concept of non-harm.

Mainstream religion sometimes asserts an idea of peace, but also has brought us concepts like a "Just War". Do any of your traditions address peace and nonviolence in any way? Or are they free of moral restraints? I am concerned with reconciling freedom with non-harm/ahimsa.

I thought of posting this in the Politics discussion section because I am interested in nonviolence as a political strategy and ideology, but I am also interested to know if there is a religious or spiritual basis for this in some paganisms.

Donal2018

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Re: Peace On Earth
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2018, 04:38:30 pm »
I am trying to learn more about nonviolence and peace studies. I was wondering if your pagan spirituality addresses these topics at all? I am interested in ahimsa, the Indian concept of non-harm.

Mainstream religion sometimes asserts an idea of peace, but also has brought us concepts like a "Just War". Do any of your traditions address peace and nonviolence in any way? Or are they free of moral restraints? I am concerned with reconciling freedom with non-harm/ahimsa.

I thought of posting this in the Politics discussion section because I am interested in nonviolence as a political strategy and ideology, but I am also interested to know if there is a religious or spiritual basis for this in some paganisms.

I am also interested in opposing viewpoints where force is viewed as necessary in some cases. I come from a military family on my Father's side. All my Uncles and my Grandfather served in the Military. I understand the idea of necessary force, "Just Wars", etc. So peace and nonviolence are not simple or easy ideas for me.

It is tough to reconcile aggressive and militant predispositions with an idea of nonviolence. I was raised with conflicting views as a Catholic. The Vatican II nuns taught peace, but my Uncles war stories taught other lessons. Then there is what was learned in the schoolyard, with male adolescent aggression. So my background is a mixed bag on this topic. Conflicting views. Still, as I have gotten older, I have been drawn more to nonviolence as a philosophy. It is not a simple thing to me.

Hariti

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Re: Peace On Earth
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2018, 12:55:28 pm »
Mainstream religion sometimes asserts an idea of peace, but also has brought us concepts like a "Just War". Do any of your traditions address peace and nonviolence in any way? Or are they free of moral restraints? I am concerned with reconciling freedom with non-harm/ahimsa.

Well, I'm a Hindu rather than a pagan, so bear that in mind, but my religion certainly addresses nonviolence! In fact, navigating the relationships between non-violence, free will, and self preservation is a major part of Hindu theology.

Generally, Hindus try to avoid causing harm to other living beings, but how that plays out in practice varies from person to person, and also across different schools of thought.

About half of all Hindus are vegetarians, and many practice total nonviolence. Others accept violence in defense of one's self, and of one's family, but not aggression toward others. It's complex, and the scriptures can be unclear and contradictory; for example, in the Gita, Krishna condemns animal killing very strongly, but also tells Arjuna that it is acceptable to go to war as long as his motives are selfless and moral.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

Donal2018

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Re: Peace On Earth
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2018, 08:52:40 pm »
Well, I'm a Hindu rather than a pagan, so bear that in mind, but my religion certainly addresses nonviolence! In fact, navigating the relationships between non-violence, free will, and self preservation is a major part of Hindu theology.

Generally, Hindus try to avoid causing harm to other living beings, but how that plays out in practice varies from person to person, and also across different schools of thought.

About half of all Hindus are vegetarians, and many practice total nonviolence. Others accept violence in defense of one's self, and of one's family, but not aggression toward others. It's complex, and the scriptures can be unclear and contradictory; for example, in the Gita, Krishna condemns animal killing very strongly, but also tells Arjuna that it is acceptable to go to war as long as his motives are selfless and moral.

Yes, thanks for the post. I know that some pagan folks use some concepts that are Eastern in origin, like karma and reincarnation (though there are some Western Traditions of reincarnation, albeit rare ones). I figured that maybe some pagans might "borrow" ahimsa, nonviolence, non-harm.

I am not sure that I would call myself a pagan, on reflection. Perhaps a Universalist with "paganish" elements. I would like to incorporate nonviolence into my private spirituality. Nonviolence can also be an effective political tool (Gandhi, MLK, etc), so it has spiritual and secular aspects.

Anyway, I was curious if any pagan people had an opinion on nonviolence. It is good to hear from a Hindu person, though.

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Re: Peace On Earth
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2018, 07:31:30 pm »
Anyway, I was curious if any pagan people had an opinion on nonviolence.

I'm not strictly speaking a pacifist, but I am continuously bewildered at how use of force is often portrayed as better than other means of problem solving. There are two main angles of this:

First, the idea that force is effective. Like anyone who talks about 'being tough on crime/drugs/etc' as if applying harsher measures is the best approach. Also, the vast majority of superhero movies showing that the way to be 'a good guy' is to beat up 'criminals' rather than, say, become a social worker or teacher and keep those people from turning to crime in the first place. (Batman, I'm looking at you here.)

Second, the idea that force is preferable. The insults "Coward, wuss, wimp, pussy" are all based on the idea that it's shameful to choose not to fight. There's the idea that fighting ability makes one a "real man" (which is a whole other can of worms), and that running away or backing down is some kind of failure of character.

In a larger sense, I see force as a last resort, which gets used because it's easy, cheap and quick, whereas non-violent solutions require knowledge, resources, time, and forethought. For example, say you lock yourself out of your house. You could use force and break down the door. Or, you could call a locksmith (requires time, money and research), plan ahead and have a spare key hidden (requires forethought), or try to get in through an open window (requires skill).

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Donal2018

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Re: Peace On Earth
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2018, 08:36:29 pm »
I'm not strictly speaking a pacifist, but I am continuously bewildered at how use of force is often portrayed as better than other means of problem solving. There are two main angles of this:

First, the idea that force is effective. Like anyone who talks about 'being tough on crime/drugs/etc' as if applying harsher measures is the best approach. Also, the vast majority of superhero movies showing that the way to be 'a good guy' is to beat up 'criminals' rather than, say, become a social worker or teacher and keep those people from turning to crime in the first place. (Batman, I'm looking at you here.)

Second, the idea that force is preferable. The insults "Coward, wuss, wimp, pussy" are all based on the idea that it's shameful to choose not to fight. There's the idea that fighting ability makes one a "real man" (which is a whole other can of worms), and that running away or backing down is some kind of failure of character.

In a larger sense, I see force as a last resort, which gets used because it's easy, cheap and quick, whereas non-violent solutions require knowledge, resources, time, and forethought. For example, say you lock yourself out of your house. You could use force and break down the door. Or, you could call a locksmith (requires time, money and research), plan ahead and have a spare key hidden (requires forethought), or try to get in through an open window (requires skill).

Yes, I agree with all of this. The male stereotype of a "hero" is often based in violence. As a man, you are swimming against the cultural tide by embracing nonviolence. And you are right that violence can be easy, cheap and quick, whereas nonviolence involves more work, time, resources. I am not a pure pacifist either. I just think more effort, time, and resources should be put towards nonviolence. Force should be a last resort, as you point out.

For example, the U.S. State Department has been hamstrung by the current administration. More resources need to be put into Diplomacy on the Federal level. On a more human scale, we need to find out why so many people resort to violence in America, especially gun violence. Sorry if this is too political. There is a spiritual and values aspect to this, though.

Why as a culture do we glorify violence? Where does violence come from? As a man, I grew up with stories and media about war, violence, crime. Superheroes fought crime with violence, as you point out. I never really questioned this growing up, but in middle age I look at the world and see so much violence and wonder why is the world this way? And what should we do about it? Not simple questions, but worth asking, I think.

Thanks for your response.

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Re: Peace On Earth
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2018, 09:28:02 pm »
Why as a culture do we glorify violence? Where does violence come from? As a man, I grew up with stories and media about war, violence, crime. Superheroes fought crime with violence, as you point out. I never really questioned this growing up, but in middle age I look at the world and see so much violence and wonder why is the world this way? And what should we do about it? Not simple questions, but worth asking, I think.

Thanks for your response.

You might be interested in some of the scholarship on Toxic Masculinity, including the documentary "The Mask You Live In."

Regarding deities, Freyr's shrine was a place of no weapons.  This seems to be more true for the Vanir in general.

They could and did make war when necessary (the Aesir-Vanir war for one)... and his sister Freyja definitely has a battle-goddess aspect.  I think they would care that the war is just.

Donal2018

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Re: Peace On Earth
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2018, 09:50:07 pm »
You might be interested in some of the scholarship on Toxic Masculinity, including the documentary "The Mask You Live In."

Regarding deities, Freyr's shrine was a place of no weapons.  This seems to be more true for the Vanir in general.

They could and did make war when necessary (the Aesir-Vanir war for one)... and his sister Freyja definitely has a battle-goddess aspect.  I think they would care that the war is just.

Thanks for that reference, I will look it up. Interesting about no weapons in Freyr's shrine. I don't know much about the Northern Traditions. I focus more on Celtic stuff and Greek and Roman.

Donal2018

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Re: Peace On Earth
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2018, 10:32:32 pm »
You might be interested in some of the scholarship on Toxic Masculinity, including the documentary "The Mask You Live In."

Regarding deities, Freyr's shrine was a place of no weapons.  This seems to be more true for the Vanir in general.

They could and did make war when necessary (the Aesir-Vanir war for one)... and his sister Freyja definitely has a battle-goddess aspect.  I think they would care that the war is just.

I did look at YouTube and Google for "Toxic Masculinity" and "The Mask You Live In". Thanks again for the references. I will be reading and watching this sort of stuff as part of my spiritual practice.

It also reminded me of the work of a "peace ethologist", a Professor named Judith Hand that I know about. She deals with peace and violence issues through gender and biology. Here is a link to her Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Hand

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