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Author Topic: North, South, East, West, and...?  (Read 1491 times)

Altair

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Re: North, South, East, West, and...?
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2017, 08:47:47 pm »
Quote from: Altair;202491


Maybe something like this:

East / air / thought / yellow
South / fire / will / red
West / water / emotion / blue
North / earth / body / green
Center / ether / spirit / gray, silver
Above / light / destiny, prophecy / white
Below / dark / memory, history / black


You could also work in above/creation, below/destruction

And what about shapes? The alchemical symbols for the elements used up and down triangles (with and without horizontal bars through the middle), plus circle for spirit. Square and a 45-degree rotation of it, the diamond, could stand for below and above, respectively...but I'm not sure if that's right. These two "new" directions have such intangible associations, and the square is a symbol of tangibility, or things made manifest.

But if not the square, then ... what?

Altair

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Re: North, South, East, West, and...?
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2017, 08:50:16 pm »
Quote from: Altair;202492
But if not the square, then ... what?

Maybe spirals? In opposite directions for each? They're not as simple or stable in form as the symbols for the existing elements, though.

Sorry. I'm thinking out loud.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 08:50:43 pm by Altair »

Darkhawk

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Re: North, South, East, West, and...?
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2017, 12:41:12 pm »
Quote from: Altair;202491
Aaargh! This might be exactly the insight I'm looking for! Are you sure you can't give some outline of your thinking?

 
Gnrf.  I can try.  I don't really do correspondences the way you're referring to, though there is some basic elemental stuff for the cardinals that probably comes out of WMT.  (It's not what I'd consider as strong as in more ceremonial approaches, like Wicca.)

Actually, to get to this I have to start at the centre.  The thing about the centre is that it touches the six other quadrants, it draws upon each of them - I know when I did more ceremonial elemental stuff there was a lot about balancing out and making sure I had adequate comprehension of each of them in play, rather than just playing to one or another.  So at least in my thing the centre has always been the thing that partakes of all the edges, the point of flowthrough.  (There's an interesting paradox there, if you poke it, the way the centre is also fundamentally circumfrential.)

So if you have the cardinal points as orienting on those elemental essences, or just spatially, or whatever, then you have above and below as another orientation, and it feels to me a somewhat more polarised one, carrying a heavier charge.  I deal with below as containing the-urge-which-rises (and if you want to make a sex joke there that is entirely appropriate, but that is just one form) and above as containing the-urge-which-descends; this is a dance of interaction, meeting - again - in the middle, at the balance and union of forces.  The vertical axis is defined by reaching and yearning in my practice - this is Geb and Nut work for me, consistently, though it takes a lot of other forms.

Aside from that, I'm dealing with a mystical system including seven holy realms, but that's a thing that ... it's not correspondences, one of the tricks is that you get different effects on the world and the world perspective in where the realms are situated in the compass.  (What does it mean if the land of the dead is below?  Or in the West?  Or above?  How does that shape the world?  Etc.)

And right about here it degenerates into total handflappy incoherence.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Altair

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Re: North, South, East, West, and...?
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2017, 02:28:53 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;202509
And right about here it degenerates into total handflappy incoherence.

Hooray for handflappy incoherence! I appreciate your trying to put this into words, and it is indeed helpful.  I especially like the idea of the urge-that-rises (chthonic impulse) and the urge-that-descends (celestial impulse).

I can definitely see a vertical axis with two poles taking shape (and like you, at the moment I see it as somewhat more polarized; and I'm not intuiting any particular masculine or feminine aspect to those poles either, unlike the four cardinal points...which I guess makes sense, since this "new" axis runs through spirit, which is neither masculine nor feminine). Perhaps not as well defined as the traditional 5, at least not yet, but a potentially useful and worthy addition.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 02:29:53 pm by Altair »

Sefiru

Re: North, South, East, West, and...?
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2017, 06:48:13 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;202509

The thing about the centre is that it touches the six other quadrants, it draws upon each of them


I thought, hey, that's almost a tesseract!

And then I thought, if you add an opposite to the center, call it the Margin, then you would have a tesseract, where each side touches all the others except its opposite.

And I have no idea what that means all together but it makes a nifty structure.

Altair

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Re: North, South, East, West, and...?
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2017, 08:44:01 pm »
Quote from: Sefiru;202515
I thought, hey, that's almost a tesseract!

And then I thought, if you add an opposite to the center, call it the Margin, then you would have a tesseract, where each side touches all the others except its opposite.

And I have no idea what that means all together but it makes a nifty structure.


See, this is the kind of thinking I can get with. I find the traditional Western esoteric cardinal points/elements structure extremely useful...but there's no reason we have to be stuck in it. Humankind has had a lot of time to accumulate more knowledge and perspective, and there may be ways to build on the traditional structure in ways that enhance and expand its usefulness by applying that knowledge.

Jack

Re: North, South, East, West, and...?
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2017, 07:17:23 pm »
Quote from: Sefiru;202515
I thought, hey, that's almost a tesseract!

And then I thought, if you add an opposite to the center, call it the Margin, then you would have a tesseract, where each side touches all the others except its opposite.

And I have no idea what that means all together but it makes a nifty structure.

 
Okay, I love that a lot and I need to spend a bunch of time thinking about it now.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
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"[Jack], you are embracing a lie which will ultimately prove destructive to you and those around you and for which there will be consequences." - ehbowen

Hummingbird

Re: North, South, East, West, and...?
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2017, 12:08:44 am »
Quote
   I thought, hey, that's almost a tesseract!

And then I thought, if you add an opposite to the center, call it the Margin, then you would have a tesseract, where each side touches all the others except its opposite.

And I have no idea what that means all together but it makes a nifty structure.


Not yet it isn't. A tesseract is a cube inside a cube, where each face is also a cube and can become the center cube. You are almost there.

You have
The cardinal directions
Center
Edge/horizon
Above
Below.

That is 8, the base geometry for a hypercube is eight, but to work with the inner cube you can apply the astrological sequence of elements.

Fire east, Earth south, Air West, Earth north.

The airts of Air east, Fire south etc. being the outer cube. So you can shift to either paradigm or any of the realms in your circle. I use a hypercube geometry in my Octagram ritual.

Hummingbird

Re: North, South, East, West, and...?
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2017, 12:39:55 am »
Quote from: Jack;202531
Okay, I love that a lot and I need to spend a bunch of time thinking about it now.


Try this template:

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/16388326_10155785291083242_8099064254055112174_n.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=4e972b45b423db8ecfb0fa56c6ea3714&oe=5941C9E4

Color the innermost versicle/ring around the circle according to the colors you use for the airts. Air in bottom right, fire bottom left etc.
On the next/middle ring do the same with the astrological sequence. Ignore the third ring.

Now color the octagram accordingly.
The diamod is the airts,
The square the astrological sequence.
Now repeat this pattern in each of the smaller octagrams.

Draw this on the floor or otherwise visualize it as your circle. Play around with it. In particular, try becoming one with the crossroads at the center, going inward and coming out the other side in a circle with the other sequence.
The colors for above, center and below stay the same.

Sefiru

Re: North, South, East, West, and...?
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2017, 06:42:49 pm »
Quote from: Hummingbird;202539
Not yet it isn't. A tesseract is a cube inside a cube, where each face is also a cube and can become the center cube. You are almost there.

I am not quite sure what you think I am missing.

Also, a tesseract is not a 'cube within a cube'; it only looks like that to our 3-dimensional senses. In fact it is a four-dimensional shape with eight faces, each of which is a cube.

Though you bring up a good point about the transformations that occur when the tesseract is rotated in 4 dimensions. That's a whole other can of worms though.

Quote
The airts of Air east, Fire south etc. being the outer cube. So you can shift to either paradigm or any of the realms in your circle. I use a hypercube geometry in my Octagram ritual.

You seem to have placed all of the cardinal directions on the faces of the outer cube. That is not what I was getting at at all.

In my construction, the outer cube is only the Margin/Periphery/whatever. The traditional cardinal directions would correspond to the six cubes that are packed between the outer cube and the center.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 06:43:09 pm by Sefiru »

hraefngar

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Re: North, South, East, West, and...?
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2017, 10:11:03 pm »
Quote from: Altair;202337

...but it occurred to me recently, while trying to imagine how a bird thinks, that it might be worth experimenting with a new conception, one that's less limited to 2 dimensions (all 5 of those points fit on a plane) and expands the directions to 3D (the way a bird must think, not being limited to a flat, earthbound perspective)

 
The following comes from  The Druid Magic Handbook: Ritual Magic Rooted in the Living Earth by Michael John Michael Greer.

East/Air/Yellow
South/Fire/Red
West/Water/Blue
North/Earth/Green

Spirit Below/ "Telluric energies" / Orange
Spirit Above / "Solar energies" / Violet
Spirit Within / balance of all 6 forces / White

I have been working with Greer's system for a while.  It has much to commend to itself.  :)

Altair

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Re: North, South, East, West, and...?
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2017, 09:18:02 am »
Quote from: hraefngar;203878
The following comes from  The Druid Magic Handbook: Ritual Magic Rooted in the Living Earth by Michael John Michael Greer.

East/Air/Yellow
South/Fire/Red
West/Water/Blue
North/Earth/Green

Spirit Below/ "Telluric energies" / Orange
Spirit Above / "Solar energies" / Violet
Spirit Within / balance of all 6 forces / White

I have been working with Greer's system for a while.  It has much to commend to itself.  :)

 
This is helpful, and aligns well with some of the other ideas I've been trying out for up/down. Though I'm not sure about the color correspondences; I'm good with the traditional four described, but Below/Black--Above/White--Within/Silver or Gray feels more natural to me.

hraefngar

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Re: North, South, East, West, and...?
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2017, 01:18:23 pm »
Quote from: Altair;203906
Though I'm not sure about the color correspondences; I'm good with the traditional four described, but Below/Black--Above/White--Within/Silver or Gray feels more natural to me.

 
For what is worth, I kind of agree with you on that point.

Altair

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Re: North, South, East, West, and...?
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2017, 02:20:37 pm »
Quote from: hraefngar;203921
For what is worth, I kind of agree with you on that point.


I suspect it seems more natural because it's more grounded in our experience of the world (as yellow for the sky right before dawn, red for fire, blue for water, and green for the growing things of the earth reflect our experience): light comes from above, beneath our feet under the earth is dark, and we are creatures of light and dark combining in various measures, so silver or gray.

Also, primary colors (green, black, and white aren't, but might as well be) convey stability and significance that orange and violet can't.

And finally, since above-center-below are linked in whatever correspondence system one ascribes to them (JMG's three forms of spirit, or macro-us-micro, or future/descendants-us-past/ancestors, or whatever), it intuitively makes sense that their axis would find more natural expression in the spectrum made possible with white to black; violet to orange doesn't offer that same easy visual for most people, I don't think. The connection is so much clearer with white-gray-black.

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