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Author Topic: Neo-Wicca Bad for Feminism?  (Read 3960 times)

yewberry

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Re: Neo-Wicca Bad for Feminism?
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2012, 04:32:00 pm »
Quote from: Celtag;66662
I wonder if the author thinks all pagan movments are so called "New Age"?


I'm pretty sure that's the case.

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MadZealot

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Re: Neo-Wicca Bad for Feminism?
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2012, 04:47:27 pm »
Quote from: Celtag;66662
I wonder if the author thinks all pagan movments are so called "New Age"?

 
Yep.
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yewberry

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Re: Neo-Wicca Bad for Feminism?
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2012, 05:16:03 pm »
Quote from: Altair;66656
It's hard to see how a worldview that restores equal (if not superior) billing to the feminine is bad for feminism.


I think the point StudiodeKadent made is peripherally touched on in the article:  gender essentialism in many schools of Wiccan thought.  While not completely ubiquitous, it's definitely around...and always problematic.

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Re: Neo-Wicca Bad for Feminism?
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2012, 05:29:49 pm »
Quote from: yewberry;66669
I think the point StudiodeKadent made is peripherally touched on in the article:  gender essentialism in many schools of Wiccan thought.  While not completely ubiquitous, it's definitely around...and always problematic.

Problematic how?  I've always looked at the Godess/God paradigm as having a layer of  metaphor, most especially concerning the principle of polarity.
I've known several Wiccans who do not fit into either gender-archetypal mold, and the gender essentialism didn't appear a problem for them.
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Thorn

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Re: Neo-Wicca Bad for Feminism?
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2012, 05:45:00 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;66654
The post appeared to be written from a cranky-atheistic point of view.  That flavor of atheist is prone to such language, but they at least do so with equal-opportunity bile.


This.  The message I got from the article was "all religion is bad, even the ones that seem silly and harmless."

To be honest, as misinformed as the author was, it's a little refreshing to see atheist apologist who tries to address religion beyond the JCI faiths, or even beyond just Christianity.
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Re: Neo-Wicca Bad for Feminism?
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2012, 05:46:26 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;66672
Problematic how?  I've always looked at the Godess/God paradigm as having a layer of  metaphor, most especially concerning the principle of polarity.

 
That's how you look at it. Again, I suggest the potential for ideology.

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Re: Neo-Wicca Bad for Feminism?
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2012, 05:53:17 pm »
Quote from: cigfran;66679
That's how you look at it.

Yes it is.  Is that somehow invalid?
I shared my perspective in the hopes of someone else sharing theirs.


Quote
Again, I suggest the potential for ideology.

 
If by that you mean someone could hold forth that "Wicca, being a fertility tradition is for hetero cisgendered folks only, LGBTs and their friends need not apply" then yes, I agree that a potential for ideology is a bad thing.
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Re: Neo-Wicca Bad for Feminism?
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2012, 06:02:43 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;66683
Yes it is.  Is that somehow invalid?


Of course not. I was pointing out that it can be problematic when someone else does not view it as metaphor but as definition.

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Re: Neo-Wicca Bad for Feminism?
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2012, 07:00:40 pm »
Quote from: Altair;66619
Wiccans and Mystical Women: How New Age is Secretly Bad for Feminism

To be honest, all I got out of this short article is that the author really knows very little about Wicca or Neo-Wicca or New Age as they are three separate things. I also do not get how women choosing their own religion for themselves (whatever one thinks of the religion itself) could be hurting feminism -- at least that side of feminism that is about empowering women to make their own decisions. That part of feminism that wants to be sure that women make the choices they approve of is a different story of course.

Also, given this was published on a web site called "Skeptic North" with a slogan of "Like a moose goring fallacies with its mighty antlers of logic"  I suspect the author thinks less of people who believe in any religion.
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Re: Neo-Wicca Bad for Feminism?
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2012, 07:06:10 pm »
Quote from: Thorn;66678
This.  The message I got from the article was "all religion is bad, even the ones that seem silly and harmless."

To be honest, as misinformed as the author was, it's a little refreshing to see atheist apologist who tries to address religion beyond the JCI faiths, or even beyond just Christianity.

 
Yeah, me too.  OTOH, that also illustrates what a very low bar it is.  Oh, look, an anti-theist noticed that we exist!

Really, it's just standard-issue anti-theist polemic, with a few superficial trappings that are meant to make it seem like feminist critique.  It's neither feminist nor critique - Darkhawk has covered why it's not feminist (dismissive of women's agency); it's not critique because it simply sets up a straw Newagewiccawomynsspirituality conflation to knock down.  It's as much by accident as design that it touches on a few genuinely problematic areas.

Altair mentions having a soft spot for cranky-atheist language.  I no longer do - or rather, my soft spot no longer extends to anti-theist instances; most cranky anti-theist apologism lacks integrity.  If one's position is supposed to be fact-based, and if one is making a Big Deal out of that, it most certainly behooves one to determine the facts about the position one is arguing against.  Failure to do so is either fluffy (wilful ignorance), or Platonic (devoted to the Platonic Ideals of Fact and Reason, while disregarding actual facts and reason), or disingenous (the position one appears to be arguing against - in this case, paganism and new age - is not the one that one is actually arguing against - theism).

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Jenett

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Re: Neo-Wicca Bad for Feminism?
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2012, 07:59:28 pm »
Quote from: yewberry;66669
I think the point StudiodeKadent made is peripherally touched on in the article:  gender essentialism in many schools of Wiccan thought.  While not completely ubiquitous, it's definitely around...and always problematic.

 
This is the part where I think the move away from understanding that the Trad Wiccan God and Goddess are very specific beings with unique identities. (I know you know this, but it seems a good place to make it explicit in the conversation.)

Which is to say: it is not gender essentialist for two people to be of particular gender orientation, sexual orientation and preference, and gender identity to fall in love, marry, and want to have babies.

(Ok, except maybe in the very very general sense in which one might say "Hey, are you sure you know other options exist?")

The problem is when one assumes that's the only way the world works. Or should work.

Trad Wicca presumes it's two individual beings who have those desires and (not unreasonably, given the opportunity) act on them. It doesn't presume to dictate what that means for everyone else - except that presumably it's not going to be an interesting mode for religious mystery experience for everyone.

(Because, really, *no* religious mystery mode is going to fit everyone. Some people don't care for religious mystery driven stuff, for a start.)

Or to put it another way: two good friends from college had a baby about a month ago. They are two real human beings, and they have a very real baby. They are in no way a metaphor. (Well, as much as none of us is.)

I - who have no desire to have kids of my own, thanks - can find mystery and power and lots of stuff to think of in various parts of the process. But that doesn't stop them being real beings with independent wills and desires and interests.

The problem comes when people look at those two people and start trying to generalise to the rest of the world. Which is a problem, but it's not coming from the nice people who just had a baby.
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Neo-Wicca Bad for Feminism?
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2012, 08:12:55 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;66672
Problematic how?  I've always looked at the Godess/God paradigm as having a layer of  metaphor, most especially concerning the principle of polarity.
I've known several Wiccans who do not fit into either gender-archetypal mold, and the gender essentialism didn't appear a problem for them.

The thing is, people that find the neowicca gender issues problematic would also leave Wicca.  I see a far bigger problem with kids being brought up with that viewpoint.

Part of the problem I had with Wicca was the gender identity issues, and I did not know about the gods being individuals instead of archetypes at that time.  I never felt comfortable with the idea that the most important aspect I brought to the table was my internal plumbing - especially as I'd spent most of my childhood trying to distance myself from being "girly".  Yes I could have made a choice to deal with it, but I did feel like I didn't even fit my own subgroup.  And that ducks.,

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Re: Neo-Wicca Bad for Feminism?
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2012, 04:42:46 pm »
Quote from: Altair;66619
Discuss.

 
You know what I think is harmful to feminism?

Kyriarchy.


Also, she used a screenshot from The Craft in her article, a movie that is pretty problematic from a feminist standpoint, let alone a pagan one.
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Re: Neo-Wicca Bad for Feminism?
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2012, 06:30:14 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;66702
... That part of feminism that wants to be sure that women make the choices they approve of is a different story of course.

Also, given this was published on a web site called "Skeptic North" with a slogan of "Like a moose goring fallacies with its mighty antlers of logic"  I suspect the author thinks less of people who believe in any religion.

 
A-yup.

Also, I'd think more of her Mighty Antlers of Logic if they worked on her own fallacies.

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