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Author Topic: Mentoring and Guiding  (Read 2130 times)

dragonfaerie

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Mentoring and Guiding
« on: March 20, 2012, 04:36:16 pm »
Through the course of my online interactions in the Pagan community over the last 15+ years, as well as the interfaith work I've started doing in some of my other hobby groups, and dealing with close friends becoming interested in Wicca, I've noticed a trend that I don't think we've discussed here...

How much should one mentor/guide a newbie? And how much should they be encouraged/forced to figure out on their own?

I started learning about Wicca on my own, and have a spiritual teacher who leads me to ideas to explore and then leaves me to get to it. I've not really taken any sort of "traditional" classes on Wicca where one is spoon-fed a course of information.

And maybe that's the crux of things for me... how much one should expect to be spoon-fed when they are, in essence, striking out on a path to find a new faith. Is it a culture-shift, that folks expect the proper information to always be available under their fingertips if they have the right keywords?

So what do you think? How should seekers and students be approached? Is using a Socratic-type method still valuable today? Or should we just give up and give them whatever tidbits of info they want so they don't just google it and get 15 dubious answers?

Karen

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Re: Mentoring and Guiding
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2012, 04:56:01 pm »
Quote from: dragonfaerie;46581


 
People use the term 'spoon-feeding' with contempt, but I've never quite understood why or exactly what they mean when they do.  We are sppon-fed as babies/beginners, then given knives and forks or chopsticks or whatever our culture uses.  We are instructed in the utensils' uses and let to practice.  We learn to use the same implements in cooking, along with a few more we pick up (and generally get shown how to use) along the way.  

Eventually we have learned to prepare, cook, and feed food to ourselves and others.  There may be questions out of order, or that make sense with later information, but I'm unaware of anybody advocating a refusal to answer them on the grounds that asking and listening isn't learning.

Is this method wrong in other areas, or am I not understanding a specific alternate application of the term?

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Marilyn/Absentminded

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Re: Mentoring and Guiding
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2012, 04:59:27 pm »
Quote from: Marilyn/Absentminded;46585

Mind, I have recipes I have no intention of sharing until after I'm dead, no matter who asks.:)

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« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 05:20:52 pm by Marilyn/Absentminded »
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dragonfaerie

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Re: Mentoring and Guiding
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2012, 05:08:10 pm »
Quote from: Marilyn/Absentminded;46585
People use the term 'spoon-feeding' with contempt, but I've never quite understood why or exactly what they mean when they do.

 
Well generally, it refers to people who could do for themselves but prefer to let someone else do the heavy lifting.

In respects to my post... well, specifically I get tired of folks who are looking for all the mystical secrets of a path in one book/teacher/web site/message board/workshop, etc. They want to learn it all! Now! Without the introspection, research, and trial-and-error that's involved in crafting your own personal spirituality.

And I get tired of the implication that now that I've learned enough to be a teacher and pass on knowledge, that I have to dispense it in easily-digestible soundbites so a seeker doesn't have to actually think about anything, just parrot back what I said.

My own teacher did not do such things with me, and I feel that I'm the stronger Pagan for it... I've learned to think critically and draw my own conclusions, to introspect and deal with my "shadow self", etc.

But I do wonder if that sort of Socratic, lead the student to the pond and let them figure out how to make sure the water's safe to drink while watching them discreetly so they don't drown method is still valid with today's learning climate, or if spoon-feeding information to folks is what's preferred... so they don't learn how to use chopsticks or cook... they just continue to feed off that jar of pureed peas.

Make better sense? Or am I mixing too many metaphors? I'm getting hungry, so anything's possible in this brain...

Karen

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Re: Mentoring and Guiding
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2012, 05:13:08 pm »
Quote from: dragonfaerie;46588
Well generally, it refers to people who could do for themselves but prefer to let someone else do the heavy lifting.


And I get tired of the implication that now that I've learned enough to be a teacher and pass on knowledge, that I have to dispense it in easily-digestible soundbites so a seeker doesn't have to actually think about anything, just parrot back what I said.

My own teacher did not do such things with me, and I feel that I'm the stronger Pagan for it... I've learned to think critically and draw my own conclusions, to introspect and deal with my "shadow self", etc.

But I do wonder if that sort of Socratic, lead the student to the pond and let them figure out how to make sure the water's safe to drink while watching them discreetly so they don't drown method is still valid with today's learning climate, or if spoon-feeding information to folks is what's preferred... so they don't learn how to use chopsticks or cook... they just continue to feed off that jar of pureed peas.

Make better sense? Or am I mixing too many metaphors? I'm getting hungry, so anything's possible in this brain...

Karen

 
I went through the same thing myself, then when I started teaching I found out that the newbies wanted everything handed to them on a platter.  Each class-session I taught had a little quiz at the end.  You could NOT go through notes or even books to find the answers as they were designed to be introspective.  Of over a dozen students I had, only 3 ever  completed all the quizes - the rest thought them too hard.

So I'd have to say that the ones who ARE willing to work for it are becoming less-and-less frequent.  And it's a sad thing, really

Marilyn/Absentminded

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Re: Mentoring and Guiding
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2012, 05:33:54 pm »
Quote from: Marilyn/Absentminded;46586


 
Too many thoughts at once here - apparently this has got me thinking, which is always a mistake.:)

I just had a thought of the baby being fed with a spoon - at that stage you don't turn on the gas cooker for him even if he points and grunts.  I would teach him how eventually, though, in preference to using whether he can figure it out himself as a guide to whether he is capable of learning more.

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Mentoring and Guiding
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2012, 06:28:21 pm »
Quote from: dragonfaerie;46588

I give what I choose to give.  If that's not what people want, they can go elsewhere.

I am under obligation to my gods to make information accessable and comprehensible.  After that, it's up to you.

I will help someone that honestly needs help to the best of my abilities.  But I refuse to be an answerbot.  That's what google is for.

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Re: Mentoring and Guiding
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2012, 08:58:44 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;46596
I give what I choose to give.  If that's not what people want, they can go elsewhere.

I am under obligation to my gods to make information accessable and comprehensible.  After that, it's up to you.

I will help someone that honestly needs help to the best of my abilities.  But I refuse to be an answerbot.  That's what google is for.

 
Yes!

I find myself feeling somewhat in despair when I think on students and the common approach to learning that many of them have.  I have had several "students" approach me for information and teachings.  I will sit with them for awhile and offer a few references for them to read.  I then suggest that they come back to me and we will discuss.  Not once (except very recently) have I heard from them again.  I stopped giving them my copies and suggest an inexpensive source to purchase them from.  

As a teacher it is my responsibility to "facilitate" the process. I took an oath to do this.  I can only do that if they  do the work.  We enter into a reciprocal relationship and if they are truely called to faith and spiritual growth then they welcome the work.  If not, then there is google for them.
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Re: Mentoring and Guiding
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2012, 09:00:30 pm »
Quote from: dragonfaerie;46581
.. How much should one mentor/guide a newbie? And how much should they be encouraged/forced to figure out on their own? ..


I am very mixed on this issue.  

I was raised in a family tradition where we had "goals" laid out but if all we ever aimed for was that goal we never got far.  Inversely, those who only aimed for the goals were also pushed to the back of the room so to speak by our elders.  Pretty much driven by the idea that if you were only going to put minimum effort into it then that was all they were going to give you in return.

That same mentatily seemed to apply in every school I ever attended from first grade right up to the point where I earned my BA.  If you did the minimum then you got the minimum in education and attention.  Yet if you pushed beyond then you were guided and encouraged every step of the way.  Even to the point where the teacher / instructor arrived when needed to encourage you along the way.

I recall a geology class in college where the professor wrote 6 names on the board before handing back our research papers.  I was one of the five and worried sick that I had done something wrong.  Yet the names listed were the papers he wished to keep because of the topics and degree of scholary work that went into them.  My paper being on the eruption of Krakatoa though more so from an analysis of the magma type and mineral composition at that fault line.  Yet in reflection it reminded me of my government class my senior year where my teacher praised a few of us for our subject selected before the class.  In that instance my paper was on the Trial of Aaron Burr for treason which greatly differed from the average who wrote about George Washington for instance.

The point of that being that when encouraged and coupled to our own drives to learn we always were rewarded for our efforts.  Yet while the acknowledgement was fine it never matched the internal sense of success and accomplishment I got from it and the challenge it created for me to do so.

I noticed to that when I was an instructor / teacher I tended to gravitate towards those students who really went out of their way to learn.  Yet the thing here was it didn't matter if they suceeded but that they tried as hard as they could to succeed.  My time, energy and focus freely given to those and support probably more so for those who were failing but trying.  I suppose in some ways a bit of contempt for those who just did the bare minimum as I saw many times a great waste of potential.

Over the years in the pagan community I have taken students who I was very proud of.  Show them how to lay a ceremonial fire for instance and they take that and go on to discover so many facets of the fire element itself.  Advancing to the point where the student does eventually become the teacher and the teacher the student as they move forward.  Yet the critical facet always ones own internal drive to succeed.

Yet perhaps that to an indicator or reason for the many tests and obsticles one places before they take a person on as a student.  To show they are willing to place the time and effort in to get to the end what ever it might be, ie lesson, pathway, concept or idea.

Yet when one looks to the net that all goes away.  You spend time and dedication of action and effort but can never tell if your student will succeed.  You can't even really tell if they put forth the time and dedication to it that a student in real life and before you would.  Yet to be the guide / mentor still requires the same amount of dedication and attention to lessons and such for the teacher.

I think to the fact that most pagan pathways are still mystical trails and require the student to undergo much soul searching and comptemplation to discover the mystery facet of things.  As a guide / mentor / teacher I can instill or provide the academic and practical application of material but I can not provide the mystical side of things when they stand alone beneath the moon or where ever as the "Light Bulb" come on for them.

Yet far to many I have encountered and been asked to teach want you to side step all that academic and pratical application of material and give them the Light Bulb right off the bat.  Yet fail to realize even if you could it wouldn't matter for they missed the building blocks that support and enable the light bulb to ignite.

For me today I am under no contract or obligation to provide, instill or guide anyone upon any trail or track.  To make the assumption that I am because of my age or experience many times to me will close the door due to that assumption on thier part.  About the only obligation I have is to my self and to my gods / goddesses and the things they desire and require of me and for them.

So basically I may not be willing to teach you to become a shamanic practitioner or hedge / green witchcraft practitioner but I will speak up when it deals with my gods / goddesses.  Especially so if I think it mis-information one is speaking in regards to them.  That's not to say I won't take part in exchanges dealing with given applications of material or concepts but not as a guide / mentor and the commitments those terms imply between teacehr and student.

Hopefully this answered the question as it got sort of long winded, if not well then all I can say is ask for clarrification of a point or idea.

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Re: Mentoring and Guiding
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2012, 09:31:47 pm »
Quote from: dragonfaerie;46581

How much should one mentor/guide a newbie? And how much should they be encouraged/forced to figure out on their own?

 
For me, it depends a great deal on context.

I really enjoy Seeker-level education work. And in that context, I'm fairly willing (my own time/energy/other commitments allowing) to break it down into small pieces, and user-friendly modules.

I won't generally cover stuff that Google does better. And I generally focus on the stuff where answering the question is not only useful to that person, but to other readers/listeners (which means that if time is short, I'm more likely to go to general approaches than specific needs that only work for one person.)

My take when I'm talking to someone who is contemplating initiatory work, however, is a lot different. If someone is interested in my trad - and particularly if they're interested in me teaching them my trad, well, in that case, they have to demonstrate that they're willing and able to do work that may not have an immediate and obvious connection to what they really want to learn right now.

I work really hard to make sure that what I teach is useful and important and necessary. But sometimes it's laying the framework for something six months, or years in the future. And there's some stuff - like any trad - where it's a collaboration with other people, and I teach it because it's important to others in the trad, even though it's not My Thing, really.

But anyway. There, a lot less spoon-feeding. And a lot less "Here, let me convince you of why this thing is necessary and awesome and interesting."

I want to do that work with people who can generally manage their own motivation and conversation about what's going on for them, and what's easy and what's hard, and what's confusing.
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Re: Mentoring and Guiding
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2012, 08:26:55 am »
Quote from: dragonfaerie;46581

How much should one mentor/guide a newbie? And how much should they be encouraged/forced to figure out on their own?

......

So what do you think? How should seekers and students be approached? Is using a Socratic-type method still valuable today? Or should we just give up and give them whatever tidbits of info they want so they don't just google it and get 15 dubious answers?

Karen

 
I am not, nor have I ever been a fan, of spoon feeding in the traditional sense.  However, I think that modern society (especially in America) has encouraged people to feel they can get everything in an instant/disposable way, and this in turn has led to people wanting the quick fix in all areas of their life.

The very best teachers I have ever had in my life didn't give me something to read or give a lecture and then ask me to repeat it back...they gave me some information, asked questions that really made me think about how I felt about that information and then expected me to build from there and come up with something new.  I think that having teachers like that and recognizing how much I learned from them, not only about the subject being taught, but also about myself and the greater world around me, has really influenced how I approach both learning and teaching.

For something like Paganism, I really feel that my role as a teacher is to help a student learn how to learn and to point them in the direction they need to go so that they can grow.  The quality of information readily available requires quite a critical eye, and teaching students how to read, examine and evaluate information they encounter is a good tool.  I don't have a problem sharing information that I have learned myself, but I also think that each person comes to knowledge in their own way, and ten people could look at the same information, but only the ones who really try to understand it will walk away with anything that wasn't in the original source.  

Coming from the perspective of someone who pretty much slogged my way through on my own, I would have loved to have found someone early on my path who would have helped me find the things I was looking for.  I am still finding things I had copied down years ago, some of which were a central part of my path at one point in time, and now I can't even believe that I wrote it down let alone practiced it.  There were lots of times where I floundered, knowing what I wanted to learn but having no success in finding anything out about it (or feeling like I was missing something crucial and so the whole thing was not making sense to me).  Having someone to give me a nudge in the right direction, answer my questions or even give me a solid beginners introduction to a subject would have saved me a lot of frustration.
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Re: Mentoring and Guiding
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2012, 04:38:46 pm »
Quote from: dragonfaerie;46581

How much should one mentor/guide a newbie? And how much should they be encouraged/forced to figure out on their own?

 
I'm of two minds on mentoring and guiding.

There is the concept of having a spiritual director, that being someone who takes responsibility for your spiritual development. It's pretty common for Christian monastics to have one and I wish I had my own sometimes. The idea is that there is a sounding board for your spiritual development and dilemmas and that is played by someone who a) has the authority to tell you what to do on some level and b) gives you feedback and guidance towards what your spiritual goals may be. I'm not Wiccan, nor do I work within any sort of trad, but it seems that this concept comes part and parcel with that experience.

On the other hand, I have a hard time being humble and accepting advice from someone who may know better than me what my next steps might be, but I know it would help me more.

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Re: Mentoring and Guiding
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2012, 09:54:24 pm »
Quote from: dragonfaerie;46581
Through the course of my online interactions in the Pagan community over the last 15+ years, as well as the interfaith work I've started doing in some of my other hobby groups, and dealing with close friends becoming interested in Wicca, I've noticed a trend that I don't think we've discussed here...

How much should one mentor/guide a newbie? And how much should they be encouraged/forced to figure out on their own?

I started learning about Wicca on my own, and have a spiritual teacher who leads me to ideas to explore and then leaves me to get to it. I've not really taken any sort of "traditional" classes on Wicca where one is spoon-fed a course of information.

And maybe that's the crux of things for me... how much one should expect to be spoon-fed when they are, in essence, striking out on a path to find a new faith. Is it a culture-shift, that folks expect the proper information to always be available under their fingertips if they have the right keywords?

So what do you think? How should seekers and students be approached? Is using a Socratic-type method still valuable today? Or should we just give up and give them whatever tidbits of info they want so they don't just google it and get 15 dubious answers?

Karen

 
I have to say that when I was a pagan, I was mainly on my own. I have never, until I joined this site a few days ago, surfed the internet much just because there was no time between work, kids, and play. I read books, and being a bit old fashioned when it comes to technology, I preferred going to the book store to jumping online to search for information. I was not surrounded by a network of pagans, but I had some free-thinkers around me, so I did have the ability to get some philosophical guidance, and a slight bit of spiritual guidance that was non-Christian. But for the most part, I discovered things on my own.

I will say this....it did not seem to matter that I wasn't spoon fed any information or lead to any discoveries. I believe with all my heart that I would have come to the same conclusions with or without a mentor. I think having a mentor could have lead  me to research a little differently, but I'm the type of person who will latch onto and learn what I consider to be fascinating, and disregard anything that bores me. A mentor may have been able to introduce me to different ways of thinking or direct my thoughts and ideas to a degree, but I'm a loner when it comes to learning and thinking. I'm one who is more likely to resist authority than do as they say. It's just my nature. There are plenty of people like me, and they are probably not likely to have spiritual mentors, either.

I think mentoring is for those who desire it, and possibly need it. Some people are much more comfortable with closer guidance, and someone to poke them in a particular direction of learning now and then. There is nothing wrong with that, and in fact, it's probably more common that those of us who think we want to go it alone. I love interaction with others and to learn from others but I never wanted what most call a "mentor."

I think mentoring spiritually is important if the person in question is an individual who needs mentoring, and that person must decide for his or herself if mentoring is best.

People tend to know in their hearts and minds what they need. Some need more mentoring than others, too. Some need that spoon-feeding and crave it. Some want tidbits, some want just a shove in a particular direction. I'd say that if you are a mentor, you are an exceptional person who is able to understand what your student needs, and can proceed accordingly. You will know if the spoon-feeding of information is necessary or if a person just needs a little nudge here and there.

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Re: Mentoring and Guiding
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2012, 11:17:15 pm »
Quote from: Alex;70239
The idea is that there is a sounding board for your spiritual development and dilemmas and that is played by someone who a) has the authority to tell you what to do on some level and b) gives you feedback and guidance towards what your spiritual goals may be. I'm not Wiccan, nor do I work within any sort of trad, but it seems that this concept comes part and parcel with that experience.


Actually, neither of these are entirely true either for me or for other trad-group focused people I know.

My job as HPS is to make the circle run, make sure the trad continues, and make sure that certain specific rituals are done certain ways (with a lot of other implied work in there, like making sure that relationships with trad and coven deities and other relevant entities are maintained.)

There's a bunch of pieces that go into that, and "Hey, let's mentor person X and help them out" can certainly be a piece of it. But it's secondary to the other commitments. (Obviously, for the trad to continue, there need to be new people sometime. But not to the detriment of the ongoing commitments. Students, mentees, etc. are time and energy consuming even when everything is awesome, and in initiatory work, there will almost certainly be times when stuff is not awesome, and people are dealing with baggage, and responses to baggage, and mis-matched sets of issues they haven't examined in 20 years, and so on.)

When I'm teaching, I have basically two modes.

One is very parallel to how I work as a librarian: I am very glad to share information, resources, answer questions, etc. But I am not particularly highly attached to a specific outcome. And while I care about the quality of my help, it's not a vows-and-commitment thing with specific binding obligations on my side beyond "do my best".

On the other hand, this comes with limits: how much time and energy I invest in someone like this is more than I do random community library patron at work, but it's much much much less than I would in someone I was considering for initiation.

I'll put some energy into trying to work through difficulties or challenges, but we're talking "2-3 hours every few weeks" of commitment not "this is a major priority and interaction in my life." If someone and I keep hitting communication or expectation challenges and the first 3 or so fixes don't really help, I'm likely to say "Hey, this just doesn't seem to be working, here's other options that might help" and cut them loose.

(That said, I just finished working with someone where we both knew we wouldn't be working toward initiation even if she wanted to - she was moving out of state in August - but we had a good time working together every 2-3 weeks and covering a lot of stuff she could move forward with on her own. I cheerfully babble about Pagan-related stuff, particularly when people bring interesting chocolate desserts to go with the conversation.)

When I'm training someone toward possible initiation in the trad, however, my job is a) figure out if this person is a possible fit for the trad b) if the trad is possible fit for them c) give them the information and facilitate the experiences that allow them to be able to make a reasonably informed decision about that and d) offer some very specific kinds of support and resources.

And if a or b turn out not to be true, my job is to do my best to figure that out as early as feasible, and with as little damage to individual or group as I can manage. (But if I have to pick, I'm going to pick 'group', because I have pre-existing commitments to them. Most of the time, it doesn't come to that.)

By which I don't mean "let me be your spiritual mentor and sagely guide you to the wonders of the universe" as much as "when you are in my circle, and we are doing trance, I will haul you back by whatever means necessary if you get stuck in trance, and to help that, we are going to mutually set up some tools that make that easier for me." and "while you are working under my roof, here are the ground rules if you want to keep doing that: some of them are negotiable, but a bunch aren't, just like there are house rules for people who get to hang out in my home."

And related to that: I want to help people find their spiritual goals. But if those goals don't intersect with my trad work, or my other commitments, they're going to come second to those things. There have been years in my life when I've had tons of energy for that second layer, and there have been years (like the last couple) when I pretty much don't. I try to be up front and honest about it, but again, if you're not going down a moderately similar road, the feedback is more likely to be some ideas of other places to look, a few books suggestions, and some good wishes, rather than ongoing spiritual guidance.

And finally, the question of authority. As far as I'm concerned, the stuff I'm an authority on is:

- What is and is not allowed in circles I am running, leading, or otherwise making happen. (There is stuff I will not do. There is stuff I will not be in the same room with. There is also a lot of stuff where it's not the thing I'd pick, but if someone else is making it happen, I'll be fine with it.)

- What is and is not allowed in my home (both physical and metaphysical: the coven astral temple, the tradition astral temple, etc. that I have responsibility for.)

- With the other 3rd degrees, I have authority for determining what's core to the tradition, what isn't, and how we handle internal discussions about what we care about, some key shared elements of training, etc. A lot of this is (deliberately) pretty obscured to most people who aren't at least 2nds in the tradition, because honestly, until you have responsibility for it, it's neither particularly interesting, nor particularly a good use of someone's time.

- And I do have authority for determining who is let into a coven or group I run, who I initiate, and other things of that kind - but I try to have as outwardly transparent a process I can for that, given that part of the question involves "do I want to have lifetime or longer than lifetime energetic connections to this person?"

Beyond that? Not so much authority. Sometimes lots of opinions, but very little weight to say "do this thing the way I want you to do it."
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Seeking: first steps on a Pagan path (advice for seekers and people new to Paganism)

Sharysa

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Re: Mentoring and Guiding
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2012, 12:37:15 am »
Quote from: dragonfaerie;46581
How much should one mentor/guide a newbie? And how much should they be encouraged/forced to figure out on their own?

[snip]

How should seekers and students be approached? Is using a Socratic-type method still valuable today? Or should we just give up and give them whatever tidbits of info they want so they don't just google it and get 15 dubious answers?


1-2) The largest part of my path involves me googling something and at best getting ONE relevant answer. It's really easy for people (including me) to say "figure things out for yourself" and maybe give some words of encouragement, but sometimes figuring things out on your own is literally not possible. My path is a very specific subset among an already-specific path, and I have ALWAYS wanted a more experienced bard/fili to talk to. Even if it's just "I understand what you're going through, but there's no telling how this will actually end because when I went through it, X turned out to be 43 instead of Y."

3) From my experience, there's hardly any method of approach for the most part. "Students" in the meaning of "those being mentored by a more experienced person" are extremely few and far between--partly because of the far-flung/secretive nature of paganism, and at least partly because most people subscribe to the "figure it out on your own" mentality. And a lot of people don't really know how to handle students in general. When I was on another pagan forum, I got more mentoring in ART than I did on my path.

Seekers, on the other hand--"those seeking information"--are pretty common, especially with basic things like "So many religions--which one to start looking at?"

There needs to be some way to sort out the students from the seekers. Most people seem far more used to the latter than the former.

For the former, it seems that most people go, "Neat--you already know what you are/want, good job!" or "Yay! Another [Shared Religious Path]!" And... they just leave it at that. As if finding your path is the end-all to religious or spiritual knowledge. Maybe I'm wrong, but that definitely seems to be an attitude that "if you know what path you follow, you don't need (much) help."

To cover the other side, there needs to be a way to get those who need education to say so. Most people seem really averse to asking in-depth questions, and they tend to apologize as if asking questions is wrong--especially where I'm from (Western USA). This might be a result of our education system and the whole mentality of "memorize this and/or write X pages for the tests at the end of the year; if you're not doing it, you're hopeless."

Even most teachers are sick of that system now.
On hiatus, but might pop in now and then. Just making it official.

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