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Author Topic: General/Non-Specific: why are we created?  (Read 9585 times)

keen

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2018, 06:00:37 pm »
I don't want to proselytize. I just find it odd, that usually pagans don't speak about love.

We are explaining to you why that is, but you keep coming around to insist that we should anyway.

I don't especially consider myself pagan, even - I'm a hard devotional polytheist, and these sorts of misunderstandings are exactly why I don't call myself pagan unless I'm speaking to an outsider who may not know what 'polytheist' means.

To get a better idea of how ridiculous you sound to some of us, go back to your argument and replace the words "pagans" with "co-workers", "religion" with "job", and "gods" with "bosses". It may surprise you to find that not all of us conduct our religious obligations to make ourselves feel warm and fuzzy, but sometimes because it makes us better able to handle all the challenges of merely existing as human beings in a world full of unseen powers.
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arete

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2018, 04:06:02 am »
We are explaining to you why that is, but you keep coming around to insist that we should anyway.

I don't especially consider myself pagan, even - I'm a hard devotional polytheist, and these sorts of misunderstandings are exactly why I don't call myself pagan unless I'm speaking to an outsider who may not know what 'polytheist' means.

To get a better idea of how ridiculous you sound to some of us, go back to your argument and replace the words "pagans" with "co-workers", "religion" with "job", and "gods" with "bosses". It may surprise you to find that not all of us conduct our religious obligations to make ourselves feel warm and fuzzy, but sometimes because it makes us better able to handle all the challenges of merely existing as human beings in a world full of unseen powers.
I like the warm and fuzzy feeling  :)

Yei

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2018, 05:37:40 am »
But if we rule love out of our lives, and only count on the goverment then our reality would be pretty ugly. In fact, less love, the more the action of goverments (if that's a good thing)

Who said anything about ruling love out of our lives? I believe that our relationship with the gods is one of exchange. This doesn't mean that one cannot love the gods. I myself love the gods, though in this sense love means that I feel gratitude and appreciation for their generosity towards me and my community. However, I recognise that this love is not unconditional. It depends on several prior conditions being met, on both sides, and it has its limits. Nor is it necessary, even if it makes worship easier.

Furthermore, love is not the be all and end all of existence. Other emotions, both positive and negative (for what ever those terms are worth), are part of the human experience. Love should not be held as somehow above all these others.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 05:40:18 am by Yei »

arete

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2018, 07:01:59 am »
Who said anything about ruling love out of our lives? I believe that our relationship with the gods is one of exchange. This doesn't mean that one cannot love the gods. I myself love the gods, though in this sense love means that I feel gratitude and appreciation for their generosity towards me and my community. However, I recognise that this love is not unconditional. It depends on several prior conditions being met, on both sides, and it has its limits. Nor is it necessary, even if it makes worship easier.

Furthermore, love is not the be all and end all of existence. Other emotions, both positive and negative (for what ever those terms are worth), are part of the human experience. Love should not be held as somehow above all these others.
There are many emotions and this could become frustrating. Love is like a compass. This compass helps mutual understanding. With a minimum quantity of love, we can have empathy to other people's psyche.

I understand now that love isn't held highly in many forms of paganism. Thank you all for the comments.  :)

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2018, 10:00:25 am »
I don't want to proselytize. I just find it odd, that usually pagans don't speak about love.

I'm totally not into nattering on about intimacies with random strangers, myself.  It feels very disrespectful to me to treat matters that are personal as subject to public debate.
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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2018, 10:50:33 am »
Why are we created? The answer is simple. In the beginning there was God. But God felt lonely, and the very instant She felt lonely, the Cosmos was created. The Cosmos is the sum of all Gods and all mortals. The love of the God and the fact that She didn't want to be alone, created Life. So life and love go hand in hand, for it's the gift of the God to us.

To my understanding love is the attractive movement of one object towards another: for example, most of us love food, shelter, warmth, wealth, friends.  We become united to what we love.

But we may also love many things that are bad for us: abusive relationships, an excess of alcohol, and so on.  It is important to qualify the importance of love.  Love can be deadly.  It is not good for us to be united to poison as most of us would understand goodness, but some people literally have addictions to poisons like bleach.

There is also this common notion that love should be selfless, but I don't see it that way, either.  As a member of a social species I do think it is a valuable resource for me to be compassionate in my life, as it not only seems to create a happier state of mind and may have health benefits, but it creates relationships that will in turn benefit me.  Even if the only benefit of doing a good deed for someone else is the warm glow I get from it, that is itself a reward.

I value morals because I want to live in a world that maximizes my possibility of flourishing.  There is always an element of giving and receiving with love.  I tend to think that if we all looked out for our own good -- keeping in mind that we are a social species and the benefits that come with actually being decent and social -- that we would end up creating an environment in which we all flourish.

So in this sense I don't see a conflict between loving wisely and an emphasis on right action, contracts with gods or others, obligations, relationships of exchange, and so forth.  Living decently, honoring our obligations and relationships, mutual exchange -- all of these are a part of loving wisely, loving what will benefit ourselves and also those we care about.

But it is important to qualify what that love means.  There tends to be among some this sentimental notion of love, that it is selfless, that it seeks no benefit, that it is valuable in itself somehow disconnected from the web of life, as if such were even possible!  That is not my view of love at all, at least not if it is to be beneficial.  Love should always be exercised with insight or wisdom.
My personal moral code:

Love wisely, and do what thou wilt.

arete

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2018, 12:21:16 pm »
I'm totally not into nattering on about intimacies with random strangers, myself.  It feels very disrespectful to me to treat matters that are personal as subject to public debate.
No intimacies. I am talking about love that brings global harmony and global peace.  :)

arete

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2018, 12:32:46 pm »
To my understanding love is the attractive movement of one object towards another: for example, most of us love food, shelter, warmth, wealth, friends.  We become united to what we love.

But we may also love many things that are bad for us: abusive relationships, an excess of alcohol, and so on.  It is important to qualify the importance of love.  Love can be deadly.  It is not good for us to be united to poison as most of us would understand goodness, but some people literally have addictions to poisons like bleach.

There is also this common notion that love should be selfless, but I don't see it that way, either.  As a member of a social species I do think it is a valuable resource for me to be compassionate in my life, as it not only seems to create a happier state of mind and may have health benefits, but it creates relationships that will in turn benefit me.  Even if the only benefit of doing a good deed for someone else is the warm glow I get from it, that is itself a reward.

I value morals because I want to live in a world that maximizes my possibility of flourishing.  There is always an element of giving and receiving with love.  I tend to think that if we all looked out for our own good -- keeping in mind that we are a social species and the benefits that come with actually being decent and social -- that we would end up creating an environment in which we all flourish.

So in this sense I don't see a conflict between loving wisely and an emphasis on right action, contracts with gods or others, obligations, relationships of exchange, and so forth.  Living decently, honoring our obligations and relationships, mutual exchange -- all of these are a part of loving wisely, loving what will benefit ourselves and also those we care about.

But it is important to qualify what that love means.  There tends to be among some this sentimental notion of love, that it is selfless, that it seeks no benefit, that it is valuable in itself somehow disconnected from the web of life, as if such were even possible!  That is not my view of love at all, at least not if it is to be beneficial.  Love should always be exercised with insight or wisdom.
In the end, love is a great ''method'' to reach happiness. Because what matters in the end? To live a happy life. I agree wholeheartedly that love should come with wisdom. And I agree we are social species, we must all learn to live and flourish together.

Yei

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2018, 06:21:31 pm »
There are many emotions and this could become frustrating. Love is like a compass. This compass helps mutual understanding. With a minimum quantity of love, we can have empathy to other people's psyche.

How is love like a compass? How does it help with understanding? What does it have to do with empathy?

Quote
No intimacies. I am talking about love that brings global harmony and global peace.  :)

What kind of love is that? And how has love ever brought anything even close to global harmony or peace?

Quote
I understand now that love isn't held highly in many forms of paganism. Thank you all for the comments.  :)

Its not about holding love in either high regard or low regard. Religion, including polytheistic religions, is fundamentally a structure for both comprehending the nature of reality, and for organising the proper rituals that need to be conducted. Love is part of this. However, it also includes the 'bad' parts of the human experience, which people need to deal with in their daily lives. Life isn't just sunshine and roses.

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2018, 07:09:41 pm »
No intimacies. I am talking about love that brings global harmony and global peace.  :)

I think there may be a language problem here. People are having trouble figuring out what you mean when you use the word "Love."

In English, the word "love" is used many different ways (I love my mother, and I love pie, but those are two different feelings). Also, some systems of philosophy (Christian theology, and I believe Neo-Platonism) use "love" to mean a specific concept, which is different for each system and from the ways the word is used in conversation. This is why it is important to define the terms you use when discussing philosophy.

Are you using the English word "love" as a translation for a Greek word? That could help us understand what you mean better. I have heard that there are at least three Greek words (eros, filios, agape) which can be translate as "love."
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arete

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2018, 12:42:52 pm »
How is love like a compass? How does it help with understanding? What does it have to do with empathy?

What kind of love is that? And how has love ever brought anything even close to global harmony or peace?

Its not about holding love in either high regard or low regard. Religion, including polytheistic religions, is fundamentally a structure for both comprehending the nature of reality, and for organising the proper rituals that need to be conducted. Love is part of this. However, it also includes the 'bad' parts of the human experience, which people need to deal with in their daily lives. Life isn't just sunshine and roses.
I think there may be a language problem here. People are having trouble figuring out what you mean when you use the word "Love."

In English, the word "love" is used many different ways (I love my mother, and I love pie, but those are two different feelings). Also, some systems of philosophy (Christian theology, and I believe Neo-Platonism) use "love" to mean a specific concept, which is different for each system and from the ways the word is used in conversation. This is why it is important to define the terms you use when discussing philosophy.

Are you using the English word "love" as a translation for a Greek word? That could help us understand what you mean better. I have heard that there are at least three Greek words (eros, filios, agape) which can be translate as "love."
As I understand Love, it's the feeling when you want to be part of something. We are social animals afterall. Eros filios and agape, all describe forms of love, and all these forms mean that we ''abandon'' our self to become friends with others and thus we create communities. We work in a community and our social self flourishes. If we create enemies with hate, we would be at constant war.

Darkhawk

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2018, 01:17:45 pm »
As I understand Love, it's the feeling when you want to be part of something. We are social animals afterall. Eros filios and agape, all describe forms of love, and all these forms mean that we ''abandon'' our self to become friends with others and thus we create communities. We work in a community and our social self flourishes. If we create enemies with hate, we would be at constant war.

I would say it is extremely uncommon to describe "the force(s) that gathers people into communities" as "love" outside a Christian context, which means it's no shock that non-Christians such as pagans don't do it.
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arete

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2018, 02:40:51 pm »
I would say it is extremely uncommon to describe "the force(s) that gathers people into communities" as "love" outside a Christian context, which means it's no shock that non-Christians such as pagans don't do it.
It's the simplest definition of love. The glue that sticks people together. In my opinion  :)

keen

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2018, 02:41:15 pm »
It's the simplest definition of love. The glue that sticks people together. In my opinion  :)

The definition according to Merriam-Webster, which probably more closely approximates the meaning most of us here are using, is as follows:

Quote
  • strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties maternal love for a child
  • attraction based on sexual desire
  • affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests
  • warm attachment, enthusiasm, or devotion

These concepts are, while part of the whole of why we engage in social relations with others and engage in right relations with gods, do not come close to covering all the bases.
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Riothamus12

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2018, 10:45:30 pm »
In my religion there was never a creation. Things come into being and then pass away. We all just sort of *are*...it's up to us to find and make our own meaning in this world.

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My view is sort of similar. In my theology the universe may not have had a "beginning" in any sense that humans would think of it. Basically, as it goes, there were the Deities and the Spirits that lived in the harmonious dance of the cosmos, eventually beasts came into being, but they were not created, but the presence of these things is sort of an effect of the mere presence of the Spirits and Deities so they took patronage over them as they still felt a sort of responsibility for them and in somewhere the countless aeons beyond written memory, humans popped up with a new and unusual relationship to the rest of the great wheel, the only beings truly capable of falling out of balance. Yet they felt responsibility for these beings so they delivered to humans the beginnings of spiritual knowledge as humans would come to know it and the rest is history. So long story short, we were not intentionally created.  The Divine does love us and has a parental aspect to it's relationship with us, but we just sort evolved into the world. In my theology our souls probably pre-existed the presence of homo sapiens on the planet as we know it, though what the hell we were actually doing before all of that I don't know.
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