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Author Topic: General/Non-Specific: why are we created?  (Read 9584 times)

arete

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why are we created?
« on: July 16, 2018, 12:19:59 pm »
Why are we created? The answer is simple. In the beginning there was God. But God felt lonely, and the very instant She felt lonely, the Cosmos was created. The Cosmos is the sum of all Gods and all mortals. The love of the God and the fact that She didn't want to be alone, created Life. So life and love go hand in hand, for it's the gift of the God to us.

keen

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2018, 01:33:00 pm »
Why are we created?

Um... in my religion's creation story, we were created to worship the gods, to speak and act well, to create beautiful things, to wage war for them, and to feed them through blood sacrifice.

Love doesn't really enter into it for me. Right action and right relationship are far more pressing.
rotwork: on devotion to lesser-known and un-known gods, transplanting genus loci, art, and modernity

arete

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2018, 02:17:56 pm »
Um... in my religion's creation story, we were created to worship the gods, to speak and act well, to create beautiful things, to wage war for them, and to feed them through blood sacrifice.

Love doesn't really enter into it for me. Right action and right relationship are far more pressing.
We can spend our lives with none of what you mention. Why are these things necessary?

Redfaery

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2018, 02:48:27 pm »
Um... in my religion's creation story, we were created to worship the gods, to speak and act well, to create beautiful things, to wage war for them, and to feed them through blood sacrifice.

Love doesn't really enter into it for me. Right action and right relationship are far more pressing.
In my religion there was never a creation. Things come into being and then pass away. We all just sort of *are*...it's up to us to find and make our own meaning in this world.

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2018, 06:22:54 pm »
We can spend our lives with none of what you mention. Why are these things necessary?

Individual lives are not always what's important. Many polytheistic religions are community based, rather than individually based. What's important is that the community does those things together.

They are necessary because they ensure the order and stability on the earth. I can give more details if you'd like. But it could be a long story.

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2018, 12:59:43 pm »
We can spend our lives with none of what you mention. Why are these things necessary?

Because I choose to live my life with them at all. These are the things they require, or have historically required. Gods and spirits change over time, of course, but they created the world through an act of self-sacrifice; it is in the interest of knowing them, their mysteries, and their greatness that "we" (the followers of this pantheon) repay that cosmic debt and partake in the cycles of re- and co-creation. Otherwise everything is meaningless.

We can spend our lives without being spiritual or religious, too - why believe in deity at all? That's not "necessary" either.
rotwork: on devotion to lesser-known and un-known gods, transplanting genus loci, art, and modernity

arete

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2018, 09:28:03 am »
Individual lives are not always what's important. Many polytheistic religions are community based, rather than individually based. What's important is that the community does those things together.

They are necessary because they ensure the order and stability on the earth. I can give more details if you'd like. But it could be a long story.
And the community can succeed doing things together if the motivation is love. Love makes things easier. In ''my'' religion, Eros (Love) is one of the primary Gods and he is very powerful.

arete

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2018, 09:31:14 am »
Because I choose to live my life with them at all. These are the things they require, or have historically required. Gods and spirits change over time, of course, but they created the world through an act of self-sacrifice; it is in the interest of knowing them, their mysteries, and their greatness that "we" (the followers of this pantheon) repay that cosmic debt and partake in the cycles of re- and co-creation. Otherwise everything is meaningless.

We can spend our lives without being spiritual or religious, too - why believe in deity at all? That's not "necessary" either.
Their self-sacrifice isn't a sign of Love? Why not adding love in our lifestyle?

keen

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2018, 01:02:24 pm »
Their self-sacrifice isn't a sign of Love? Why not adding love in our lifestyle?

I suspect you're using a very specific definition of love not unlike that which tends to be espoused by the monotheisms and by various new age spiritualities.

I prefer the words duty or obligation; the term 'right relationship' is also something that's commonly understood among polytheist practitioners to be a cornerstone of how we practice our faith. It can constitute the kind of love you're referring to, but as a concept it is much deeper, broader, and a little scarier than what I feel like you're arguing.

Do the gods love us? Many of them, probably. To some gods we are nuisances to be tolerated. To others, we are merely playthings to be used and disposed of. Some change depending on their aspect; for instance, one of my primary gods brings the life-giving rains, and was the first to reveal the bounty of creation to the first humans. But cross him and he will kill you. It's my UPG that he is one of the primary agents carrying out the storm-related disasters resulting from climate change. If that's not tough "love", I don't know what is. I've also personally been stricken very ill by overstepping my boundaries with another pair of gods and worshiping them in a way they didn't approve of. I'm talking 5 weeks of bronchitis bordering on pneumonia - absolute misery, and I still have a noticeable amount of scar tissue built up in my lungs from that, all these years later. A constant reminder of when I fucked up.

People who go into rigorous spirit work usually do so in response to a life-threatening event, and the only way to avoid death or something close to id is to do what the spirit or god tells them to do: some call this a "shaman's sickness".

Some pantheons are notoriously hostile and unforgiving by nature; I'm thinking here of what I've heard about the Korean gods and spirits, and other choice gods from different pantheons whose 'worship' more or less equated to placating them and asking them to leave the people alone.

Love has its place; but I think the way in which you're trying to use it here doesn't even come close to capturing the immensity of divine knowledge, logic, or rationale. I would highly suggest you do a little more reading on some traditional creation myths if this is an actual discussion you're trying to have rather than just a venue for you to preach your view at us.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 01:05:16 pm by keen »
rotwork: on devotion to lesser-known and un-known gods, transplanting genus loci, art, and modernity

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2018, 05:29:12 pm »
And the community can succeed doing things together if the motivation is love. Love makes things easier. In ''my'' religion, Eros (Love) is one of the primary Gods and he is very powerful.

What does love mean in this context? Love is not always good. It can be selfish, treacherous even. It can make certain tasks harder to perform, and compromise people's ability to function as important individuals.

Furthermore, communities don't need love to function at all. In fact, I'd say the vast majority don't. Fundamentally, communities are a collection of people who live in relatively close proximity to each other, and consequently share similar spaces. These communities often come with governments whose job is to manage and organise these individuals. Indeed, such governments are necessary precisely because people within communities don't always get along.

Regardless, this has little bearing on the central point, which is that worship is not dependent on love, but performing right action.

arete

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2018, 05:32:27 pm »
I suspect you're using a very specific definition of love not unlike that which tends to be espoused by the monotheisms and by various new age spiritualities.
I didn't give a definition of Love. I mean the God Eros (the personification of love) the kind of Love that gives birth to. from theogony ''First of all Chaos [Gap] came into being.  But then Gaia broad chested, always the unshakable seat of all the immortals who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus, and dark Tartaros in the recesses of the wide-wayed earth, and Eros, the most beautiful among the immortal gods, loosener of limbs, who subdues the mind and prudent counsel in the chests of all gods and of all men''

Eros is one of the primary Gods, powerful and beautiful. He is also in the company of Aphrodite, Goddess of beauty and love, and noone can resist Aphrodite or Eros. Can we resist love? Isn't love the most powerful motivation? I think love affects our actions the most, either for good or for worse. For example, in Theogony, Gaia gives birth to other Gods because of the force of Eros.

Quote
I prefer the words duty or obligation; the term 'right relationship' is also something that's commonly understood among polytheist practitioners to be a cornerstone of how we practice our faith. It can constitute the kind of love you're referring to, but as a concept it is much deeper, broader, and a little scarier than what I feel like you're arguing.
Duty or obligation are also very powerful, but they don't negate love. From love comes the right duty and right obligation, and right relationship. Just imagine the world without Eros the driving force that connects duty with beauty.

Quote
Do the gods love us? Many of them, probably. To some gods we are nuisances to be tolerated. To others, we are merely playthings to be used and disposed of. Some change depending on their aspect; for instance, one of my primary gods brings the life-giving rains, and was the first to reveal the bounty of creation to the first humans. But cross him and he will kill you. It's my UPG that he is one of the primary agents carrying out the storm-related disasters resulting from climate change. If that's not tough "love", I don't know what is. I've also personally been stricken very ill by overstepping my boundaries with another pair of gods and worshiping them in a way they didn't approve of. I'm talking 5 weeks of bronchitis bordering on pneumonia - absolute misery, and I still have a noticeable amount of scar tissue built up in my lungs from that, all these years later. A constant reminder of when I fucked up.

People who go into rigorous spirit work usually do so in response to a life-threatening event, and the only way to avoid death or something close to id is to do what the spirit or god tells them to do: some call this a "shaman's sickness".

Some pantheons are notoriously hostile and unforgiving by nature; I'm thinking here of what I've heard about the Korean gods and spirits, and other choice gods from different pantheons whose 'worship' more or less equated to placating them and asking them to leave the people alone.

Love has its place; but I think the way in which you're trying to use it here doesn't even come close to capturing the immensity of divine knowledge, logic, or rationale. I would highly suggest you do a little more reading on some traditional creation myths if this is an actual discussion you're trying to have rather than just a venue for you to preach your view at us.
I don't speak for pantheons I don't know. I admit I find it strange that there are Gods that they see us as their enemies.

keen

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2018, 05:40:44 pm »
I didn't give a definition of Love. I mean the God Eros (the personification of love) the kind of Love that gives birth to.

I don't worship Eros, I have no relationship with him. Therefore, unless he thinks otherwise and is willing to reach out to me about it, his jurisdiction has no bearing on my life.

What was the point of making this thread again? I ask in all seriousness - is this supposed to be some kind of devotional topic? What kind of discussion were you hoping for, exactly? Or are you trying to proselytize? Because that doesn't go over well around here, and you're treading mighty close to breaking some forum rules re: religious tolerance while you're at it.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 05:42:30 pm by keen »
rotwork: on devotion to lesser-known and un-known gods, transplanting genus loci, art, and modernity

arete

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2018, 05:45:37 pm »
What does love mean in this context? Love is not always good. It can be selfish, treacherous even. It can make certain tasks harder to perform, and compromise people's ability to function as important individuals.

Furthermore, communities don't need love to function at all. In fact, I'd say the vast majority don't. Fundamentally, communities are a collection of people who live in relatively close proximity to each other, and consequently share similar spaces. These communities often come with governments whose job is to manage and organise these individuals. Indeed, such governments are necessary precisely because people within communities don't always get along.

Regardless, this has little bearing on the central point, which is that worship is not dependent on love, but performing right action.
But if we rule love out of our lives, and only count on the goverment then our reality would be pretty ugly. In fact, less love, the more the action of goverments (if that's a good thing)

arete

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2018, 05:48:47 pm »
I don't worship Eros, I have no relationship with him. Therefore, unless he thinks otherwise and is willing to reach out to me about it, his jurisdiction has no bearing on my life.

What was the point of making this thread again? I ask in all seriousness - is this supposed to be some kind of devotional topic? What kind of discussion were you hoping for, exactly? Or are you trying to proselytize? Because that doesn't go over well around here, and you're treading mighty close to breaking some forum rules re: religious tolerance while you're at it.
I don't want to proselytize. I just find it odd, that usually pagans don't speak about love.

Redfaery

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Re: why are we created?
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2018, 05:59:16 pm »
I don't want to proselytize. I just find it odd, that usually pagans don't speak about love.
Not sure that's true, though? It might not be in fashion amongst reconstructionist pagans, but many Wiccish types are quite free in talking about their ideas of love.

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