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Author Topic: whats the main differences between traditionalism and reconstructionalism please?  (Read 4198 times)

celtickitty16

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Hi All trying to narrow down a path to follow but there are so many different celtic traditions that look and seem very similar to one another so its been quite difficult.The traditions that intrest me in particular is druidism,celtic shamanism and the faery faith. .However, before I rule out traditionalism and reconstructionalism I felt I needed to better understand the terms from those that have practiced or heard of them.

Please help if you can:confused:

Sophia C

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Quote from: celtickitty16;142800
Hi All trying to narrow down a path to follow but there are so many different celtic traditions that look and seem very similar to one another so its been quite difficult.The traditions that intrest me in particular is druidism,celtic shamanism and the faery faith. .However, before I rule out traditionalism and reconstructionalism I felt I needed to better understand the terms from those that have practiced or heard of them.

Please help if you can:confused:

 
My understanding is that Celtic traditionalism involves unbroken traditions followed by those who live in 'Celtic' areas/countries (including Ireland, Scotland, Wales, parts of England, the Isle of Man and Brittany). If people are from one of these areas and are folllowing their native folk traditions, they might define as Celtic traditionalists. For example, those who live in the Gaeltacht of Ireland, speak Irish, and follow Irish traditions. There's an answer to this question on the CR FAQ: http://www.paganachd.com/faq/howdifferent.html#gt
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Gilbride

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Quote from: Naomi J;142812
My understanding is that Celtic traditionalism involves unbroken traditions followed by those who live in 'Celtic' areas/countries

 
Most people who call themselves traditionalists don't fit that description. Basically, reconstructionists try to reconstruct Iron Age Celtic religion, while traditionalists base their practices on more recent folklore. Very few from either group come from "Celtic" areas.

savveir

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Quote from: celtickitty16;142800
Hi All trying to narrow down a path to follow but there are so many different celtic traditions that look and seem very similar to one another so its been quite difficult.The traditions that intrest me in particular is druidism,celtic shamanism and the faery faith. .However, before I rule out traditionalism and reconstructionalism I felt I needed to better understand the terms from those that have practiced or heard of them.

Please help if you can:confused:

 
Celtic Shamanism is a problematic term loaded with cultural appropriation. To quote Stephy in a previous thread this has come up in...

Quote from: stephyjh;135446
Anything that claims to be shamanism without having its roots in the nomadic tribes of Siberia is hand-waving cultural appropriation of a "these primitives all look alike to me" variety at best, and fraudulent at worst. There's no such thing as non-Siberian shamanism. The application of the term to practices from other cultures erases the differences between cultures that have little to nothing in common. It's poor scholarship, it's privilege in action, and it's a bad idea.
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Sophia C

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Quote from: Gilbride;142827
Most people who call themselves traditionalists don't fit that description. Basically, reconstructionists try to reconstruct Iron Age Celtic religion, while traditionalists base their practices on more recent folklore. Very few from either group come from "Celtic" areas.

 
That may be your definition, but I know quite a number of people from Ireland and Scotland who fit the other definition.
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Oíche

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Quote from: Naomi J;142830
That may be your definition, but I know quite a number of people from Ireland and Scotland who fit the other definition.

 
*Waves* :p

(Sorry, I had to come in here while I had the chance considering that I'm sitting in Cork right now XD)
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celtickitty16

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Quote from: Naomi J;142812
My understanding is that Celtic traditionalism involves unbroken traditions followed by those who live in 'Celtic' areas/countries (including Ireland, Scotland, Wales, parts of England, the Isle of Man and Brittany). If people are from one of these areas and are folllowing their native folk traditions, they might define as Celtic traditionalists. For example, those who live in the Gaeltacht of Ireland, speak Irish, and follow Irish traditions. There's an answer to this question on the CR FAQ: http://www.paganachd.com/faq/howdifferent.html#gt


ok thats a good way to define it. thank you naomi. my family is from south scotland so i'd best not rule this one out.looking at that link now :)

celtickitty16

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Quote from: Cág;142876
*Waves* :p

(Sorry, I had to come in here while I had the chance considering that I'm sitting in Cork right now XD)

 
hello :)

Sophia C

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Quote from: celtickitty16;142927
ok thats a good way to define it. thank you naomi. my family is from south scotland so i'd best not rule this one out.looking at that link now :)

My family is from Cork,  but I could never call myself a Gaelic traditionalist.  I don't live there,  I don't speak the language,  I would be rejected from the Gealtacht,  and so on.  My personal opinion is that this is a term that should be reserved for those living the traditional culture -  which,  while not impossible in diaspora,  is a lot more difficult. It's about more than where your family comes from,  in my opinion.
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Gilbride

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Quote from: Naomi J;142830
That may be your definition, but I know quite a number of people from Ireland and Scotland who fit the other definition.


That's cool, the more traditionalists of that type the better.

beith

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Quote from: Naomi J;142929
My family is from Cork,  but I could never call myself a Gaelic traditionalist.  I don't live there,  I don't speak the language,  I would be rejected from the Gealtacht,  and so on.  My personal opinion is that this is a term that should be reserved for those living the traditional culture -  which,  while not impossible in diaspora,  is a lot more difficult. It's about more than where your family comes from,  in my opinion.

 
There are some Gàidhealtachd areas in Canada.  I'm just curious if they would fit your definition of Gaelic traditionalist?

Sophia C

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Quote from: beith;142949
There are some Gàidhealtachd areas in Canada.  I'm just curious if they would fit your definition of Gaelic traditionalist?

 
Yes, I know people in the Gàidhealtachd in Nova Scotia who call themselves Gaelic traditionalist. Language isn't the most important thing IMO, and like I say, it's not impossible in diaspora - but I think it's quite hard.
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ethelwulf

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Quote from: savvy;142829
Celtic Shamanism is a problematic term loaded with cultural appropriation. To quote Stephy in a previous thread this has come up in...

 
You can argue that use of the word shamanism outside of Tungusic peoples like the Evenki was a mistake but whether we like it or not it has come to mean a type of spiritual practice. Whether we like the word or not the concept is important the practice of shamanism is amazingly similar over the world. There is no reason to think the Celts or Germanic tribes did not practice shamanistic rituals. They clearly had beliefs in shapeshifting and other aspects of shamanistic practice. I wish they had used a different word but the use of shamanism to describe a spiritual practice is unlikely to change just as the meaning of many other words used in English have changed.

beith

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Quote from: Naomi J;142950
Yes, I know people in the Gàidhealtachd in Nova Scotia who call themselves Gaelic traditionalist. Language isn't the most important thing IMO, and like I say, it's not impossible in diaspora - but I think it's quite hard.

 
Thanks!  I don't know anything about it except that those areas exist so I appreciate your insights.  Another question if I may.  Is the Gàidhealtachd in Nova Scotia Gaelic traditionalist in your opinion?  That is, is the area mostly defined by language (which you do not consider the most important thing), or are there other parts of the culture of those areas that fall under Gaelic traditionalism?

And tangentially related...do the Gàidhealtachd areas of Scotland also tend to have a lot of English speakers?  I plan to visit Scotland this summer and didn't think I would have too much language issues compared to other places I've been.  But if I visit a Gàidhealtachd area and should learn a few key phrases and perhaps carry a dictionary, I'd like to be prepared for that.

Juni

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Quote from: ethelwulf;142955
You can argue that use of the word shamanism outside of Tungusic peoples like the Evenki was a mistake but whether we like it or not it has come to mean a type of spiritual practice. Whether we like the word or not the concept is important the practice of shamanism is amazingly similar over the world.

 
Like it or not, historical use of a word does not make it okay. It's still appropriative and problematic, and using a similar word only reinforces our cognitive biases by encouraging us to look at the similarities, overestimate how similar they are, and ignore the differences. Words mean things.
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