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Author Topic: Witchcraft and Lucifer  (Read 4793 times)

yennork

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Re: Witchcraft and Lucifer
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2013, 10:59:29 am »
Quote from: Louisvillian;126284
Is this seriously a question? Witchcraft in the Western pop-cultural mindset, the cultural complex and imagery surrounding it. Diabolic cultists, wielding magic in a fantastical manner, to poison or to harm. The concept that developed in the Late Middle Ages, and variously was taken dead-seriously or made light of over the centuries.

 
Sorry, I thought you meant the things people really did, like magical curing, divination, finding stolen goods or hidden fortunes, driving out meddlesome ghosts and de-hexing people believing themselves to be hexed.

Are you talking about the mindset that were convinced people did make pacts with the devil and used their new-found powers to do evil? Or about men getting their hands on grimoires, trying out the various ceremonies and spells they found there?

Or something completely different?
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Louisvillian

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Re: Witchcraft and Lucifer
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2013, 01:21:48 pm »
Quote from: lilitu;126287
What is your opinion on family traditions then?

They're family traditions of folk magic practices, often combined with the dominant religion to form Folk Christianity. I never said that they weren't a thing. But, even if they were old traditions, they never would have called themselves "witches", at least not prior to the late 19th century.

Quote from: yennork;126422
Are you talking about the mindset that were convinced people did make pacts with the devil and used their new-found powers to do evil?

Like it or not, that was the pop-cultural image of "witches" and "witchcraft" for centuries. Among neopagan, polytheistic-revivalist, and magic-revivalist circles, it's obfuscated by the fact that one of the first things these revivals did was reclaim the term "witch" to mean something more positive--or at least something more neutral and broad.
I'm not saying that those of us who practise Wicca, Traditional Witchcraft, and related methods of practice can't call ourselves witches or call what we do witchcraft. But I am saying that it's irresponsible to do so uncritically.

lilitu

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Re: Witchcraft and Lucifer
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2013, 01:13:00 pm »
Quote from: Louisvillian;126552
They're family traditions of folk magic practices, often combined with the dominant religion to form Folk Christianity. I never said that they weren't a thing. But, even if they were old traditions, they never would have called themselves "witches", at least not prior to the late 19th century.


I was asking because they're usually also considered traditional witchcraft. I am well aware they weren't calling themselves 'witches', but I don't care much about semantics, so I won't discuss it.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 01:13:33 pm by lilitu »

Louisvillian

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Re: Witchcraft and Lucifer
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2013, 05:50:37 pm »
Quote from: lilitu;126666
I was asking because they're usually also considered traditional witchcraft. I am well aware they weren't calling themselves 'witches', but I don't care much about semantics, so I won't discuss it.

 
At least half of what I was talking about was semantics. You gotta have a common understanding of what words mean if you're going to use them, right?

lilitu

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Re: Witchcraft and Lucifer
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2013, 04:32:55 am »
Quote from: Louisvillian;126686
At least half of what I was talking about was semantics. You gotta have a common understanding of what words mean if you're going to use them, right?

 
Of course. But language is a living thing, and words keep changing their meaning. I can see nothing wrong with using the term 'witch' seeing how it means a completely different thing than 200 years ago.

Louisvillian

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Re: Witchcraft and Lucifer
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2013, 12:08:32 pm »
Quote from: lilitu;126726
Of course. But language is a living thing, and words keep changing their meaning. I can see nothing wrong with using the term 'witch' seeing how it means a completely different thing than 200 years ago.
Neither do I. But you have to recognise that it did mean something specific, and different, from the usage we're using in reference to Wicca and Trad Witchcraft. And it still does in circles that lack sufficient knowledge about these new religious movements.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 12:11:27 pm by Louisvillian »

zenobia

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Re: Witchcraft and Lucifer
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2013, 09:56:18 pm »
Quote from: Louisvillian;126769
Neither do I. But you have to recognise that it did mean something specific, and different, from the usage we're using in reference to Wicca and Trad Witchcraft. And it still does in circles that lack sufficient knowledge about these new religious movements.

 
Lithuania was the last pagan outpost in Europe and was forcibly converted in the 14th century. The pagan religion there, now called Romuva,has never died out and now has a strong revival. So there it's entirely authentic and not 'folk'.

As for Lucifer, as others have noted it's a Greek adjective. Diana whom I worship is often called "Diana Lucifera" light-bringer. When Europe was Christianized, friendly daemones became evil demons...In early 20th century in the country in Italy women who performed curses etc were certainly called strega, witches, just read "Christ Stopped at Eboli" or Carlo Ginzburg.

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Re: Witchcraft and Lucifer
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2013, 03:23:11 am »
Quote from: zenobia;132868
Lithuania was the last pagan outpost in Europe and was forcibly converted in the 14th century. The pagan religion there, now called Romuva,has never died out and now has a strong revival. So there it's entirely authentic and not 'folk'.


I'm curious what definition of 'folk' you are using here, that places it in opposition to 'authentic'.

I'm also not sure what Romuva has to do with this thread, unless you simply meant it as an instance of authentic practice (what I would call 'authentic folk practice').

Quote
As for Lucifer, as others have noted it's a Greek adjective.

 
What others have noted (accurately) is that it's Latin, not Greek.

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Re: Witchcraft and Lucifer
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2013, 03:25:34 am »
Quote from: zenobia;132868
Lithuania was the last pagan outpost in Europe and was forcibly converted in the 14th century. The pagan religion there, now called Romuva,has never died out and now has a strong revival. So there it's entirely authentic and not 'folk'.

 
For definitions of "never died out" that involve conversion in the 14th century and revival in the 19th? The Baltic peoples certainly have more recent practice to draw on than much of Europe but it's still recon built on folklore and cultural heritage.
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Re: Witchcraft and Lucifer
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2013, 08:27:42 pm »
Quote from: alittlewitchy;124434
I have a question regarding Lucifers "place" in traditional witchcraft and hopefully someone on here can educate me. I am still doing lots of reading and research on different aspects of Paganism and still consider myself a Seeker or Acolyte so this is not a judgement but something I hope to get clarification on. In all I have read regarding both the Trad Craft and Wicca it says that Satan or Lucifer or The Devil is a Christian figure, meaning he belongs in the whole God/Devil Heaven/Hell deal, and Witches do not worship him. However on further reading onto some online Pagan blogs I have seen a few separate times incantations and Spells involving Lucifer. So now I am confused....having been raised Christian, no longer my path, I associate Lucifer as the most beautiful Angel who was cast out of Heaven and in turn is Satan. Am I wrong? Can someone clarify for me please.

 
One of the things that doesn't seem to have been pointed out here yet. Satan literally means "adversary" and the entire concept of Satan (at least according to my Christian scholar hubby) is to test people and allow them to see their own true mettle.
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