The Good Side of Fluff?

[RandallS]

Part of how that came about is, back in the '70s and early '80s, traditionalists were far more likely to object to eclectics using the word "witch", so what should have become known as Eclectic Witchcraft (specifically, exoteric-Wicca-derived/inspired neoPagan religious Witchcraft) was called Eclectic Wicca instead (despite the fact that EWs often had quite a bit of inspiration/derivation from other sorts of religious Witchcraft as well).

Yes, the non-traditionalist started calling themselves and their craft "Wicca" (instead of witch/witchcraft) to avoid constant arguments with traditionalists who were claiming that one could not be a witch unless one was initiated into one of their groups as only they were true witches. The claim was utter nonsense, of course, as it was based on their claim to be the inheritors of the secret witch stuff Murray talked about. However, Murray's witchcult stuff was still popular/respected in non-academic circles then so people who inclined to accept their claims. However, by tryinf to claim the word "witch" for their exclusive use, Traditionalists managed to lose ant realistic claim to the sole use of the term "wicca".

[SunflowerP]

I don't disagree with you, just noting that there's history here that complicates it.

 
Ha - "history here", indeed.  I came back to clarify, PlaceboArtist, because elseforum, I suddenly noticed the flag on your profile:  what I spoke of was a North American thing.  It has played out quite differently in the UK, so I am given to understand, with the use of "Wicca" to refer to things other than Traditional Wicca being uncommon until the last decade or so.

IMO, addressing the misrepresentations/misconceptions that have developed is best done by taking into account the history in all locations, rather than just the history of one's own location:ashamed:.

Sunflower

[PlaceboArtist]

IMO, addressing the misrepresentations/misconceptions that have developed is best done by taking into account the history in all locations, rather than just the history of one's own location

I was not aware of the history you described, I had always thought that the Trad Wiccans took more issue with using Wicca without initiation than they did with Witch. Still, what you said goes a long way to explain how there's ended up being such disparate religious practices all calling themselves Wicca.

[AmberHeart]

Part of how that came about is, back in the '70s and early '80s, traditionalists were far more likely to object to eclectics using the word "witch", so what should have become known as Eclectic Witchcraft (specifically, exoteric-Wicca-derived/inspired neoPagan religious Witchcraft) was called Eclectic Wicca instead (despite the fact that EWs often had quite a bit of inspiration/derivation from other sorts of religious Witchcraft as well).

I don't disagree with you, just noting that there's history here that complicates it.

Sunflower

Well having waded through the entire thread on my ancient computer, a few observations from my experiences over the years. And apologies, my memory isn't up to remembering who said what if I reference a post somewhere.

I've always seen two entwined interdependent histories re Paganism and modern Witchcraft. The factual and the mythic. A well told tale is always preferred to the dry and factual. Human nature. Even oral histories get revised accordingly generation to generation. Those well told and 'commercialized' tales of (Pagan, Witchcraft) histories out there tend to be mostly mythic. Without the foundation, sinew and grit of the factual, mythic history remains a pretty tale but rarely life-transformational. Some will always  grativate towards those mostly mythic tales and believe (however transitory) that that is all there is. Cause often they are told just that and sometimes, that is all that they can access. So long as this stuff sells, it will be out there. If 'this is the real truth' and 'everyone does this' rhetoric help those sell, they will be there too.

I often feel sorry for beginners online because they do come in at a point in their wisdom walk that older Pagans/Witches often don't remember being at. They post and get squashed for simply being where they are right now. And yes, sometimes they can be made to be fluffy or a biting bunny as we used to say in the 80's. Backed into a corner, made to feel inadequate, stupid, immature and so on, they get defensive, cling to their learned so called one truth, indulge in 'you are all mean and nasty' and depart. End of lesson. On both sides.

Someone posted that all Wiccans are not Witches and my eyebrows went up. Practicing a Religion of Witchcraft but not a Witch? Who knew? But that is someone else's mileage, The Craft has numerous definitions and most likely what they are practicing bears superficial resemblence to either a religion or what I know as the fundamentals of Wicca. Yet if I hold that there are no leaders or universal religious authorities across the spectrum called Wicca (or BTW), it is not up to me to tell those non-Witch Wiccans they are right or wrong. Just don't expect to be recognized as such everywhere else folks. And that does tend to be the underlying goal or need in differences of opinions. Acceptance of what I say I am and recognition that what I say I do is actually (in this case) Wicca. (Or Witchcraft or Paganism...and so on.) Deep down we all want that on some level.

As a Pagan and Witch, the opinions of others extend, IMO, only to the end of my wand (or athame if they want to get a really pointed response). If you are in a Trad, coven or circle (aka as a Witch), then you always remain a solitary practitioner who has also agreed to participate and abide by community rules - for just that Trad, coven or circle. with Witchcraft. Exclusivity has a bad rap but for anything such as a group to function, you have to exclude what or who doesn't belong.

Well that was either a long senior second or so boring it sent folks to sleep. :whis:

Hopefully it contributes something,

Amber

[SunflowerP]

I had always thought that the Trad Wiccans took more issue with using Wicca without initiation than they did with Witch.

And where you are, that's pretty much true AFAIK.

Still, what you said goes a long way to explain how there's ended up being such disparate religious practices all calling themselves Wicca.

 
I'm really glad you found it informative.  I'd note that what AmberHeart says about mythic truth vs factual truth is also relevant as a complicating factor - which ties directly to what Randall said about "secret witch stuff" and Murray.  That aspect applied on both sides of the pond - in both the UK Witch Wars in the '60s and the NA Witch Wars in the '70s, everyone was trying to position themselves as the real, true surviving Witch Cult.

Sunflower

[yewberry]

I often feel sorry for beginners online because they do come in at a point in their wisdom walk that older Pagans/Witches often don't remember being at. They post and get squashed for simply being where they are right now. And yes, sometimes they can be made to be fluffy or a biting bunny as we used to say in the 80's. Backed into a corner, made to feel inadequate, stupid, immature and so on, they get defensive, cling to their learned so called one truth, indulge in 'you are all mean and nasty' and depart. End of lesson. On both sides.

There's another component to the whole fluffy issue:  a largely manufactured history of oppression gives noobs an annoying, indignant bluster that brands them from the get-go.  Often any disagreement is seen as an example of that oppression.  There's really only so much one can do with someone who responds this way.

Just about everybody was fluffy once...or at least fluffier.  I took my smack-downs and learned from them.  Hell, I'm still taking them.  I'm on a path of blood and death and sex as much as one of light and joy and kindness.  Wisdom has come to me in many forms, and not all of them were entirely pleasant.  To sum up:  kid gloves are not part of the uniform.

Brina

[AmberHeart]

To sum up:  kid gloves are not part of the uniform.

Brina

Oh yeah!

Wrapping one's head and heart around THAT is pretty much a defining crossroads for anyone on a spiritual journey. And the very young, the unprepared and the uncommitted just do not get it. Hence another attraction of fluff.

Experience teaches. Humans learn longest through pain and loss. Genuine loss that is, as you pointed out. The sub-cult of witchy myartrdom has mythic roots but causal history is always multi-faceted.

Amber