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Author Topic: Silver Ravenwolf's Effect on Wicca/Paganism?  (Read 11464 times)

FollowerofOdin

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Re: Silver Ravenwolf's Effect on Wicca/Paganism?
« Reply #75 on: May 06, 2013, 08:49:49 pm »
Quote from: Jack;107859
I always assumed it was because the interesting stuff was oathbound, but I realized when you asked this that I don't know for sure.

 
Actually I have no problem with Oathbound stuff. Heck, when you write things in your BOS it becomes Oathbound, your own personal information. I have no interest in reading Oathbound material and leave it to covens to have their little mysteries. No, it's the flashy covers that I have a problem with and the fact that she uses Wicca and Witchcraft interchangeably.

FollowerofOdin

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Re: Silver Ravenwolf's Effect on Wicca/Paganism?
« Reply #76 on: May 06, 2013, 08:54:41 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;107861
Yes and no, in my experience?

A bunch of what gets cut in the watered down version is the hard stuff:

* Talking about sex and intimacy and what that means. (Sort of necessary if you're talking about mysteries centered around love, birth, and death: Silver's earlier books, in particular, sort of entirely ignore the mystery religion aspects except very much in passing.

* How we do responsible alteration of our mental states. (By which I mean trance and ritual - but if you read Silver's books, she's really really dismissive of even moderate casual drinking. I do my best to consume a bunch of stuff mindfully - including caffeine and chocolate, and these days anything with sugar - but they all affect my body and my brain.)

* How we deal with the hard stuff in our lives, not just the easy stuff. That's something that generally takes a degree of trust and experience-over-time to get a grip on: most books don't do it well. Some, however, do a much better job than Silver's (and a bunch of other 101 works) at indicating that stuff's even in the picture, or what you do when you hit it.

* Why we do ritual, and why more formal ritual methods exist. (Reasonable people can - and do - disagree about this, but a lot of watered down methods blow off the very real reasons why structured ritual, or specific ritual practices keep getting done. Cliff notes version: it's because they do things for enough people that the more informal things don't. A lot of the watered down versions either have this "Well, it's just something we do" without adequate explanation, or they imply you don't need them at all.)

Oathbound material generally will give you:
* the internal mysteries, presumably linked in some way such that they build on each other.
* a wider range of tools for hard times and complicated situations. (Including *much* more in the way of ethical models than "Harm none")
* a great deal more depth in ritual practice: even if it's not explained, or not explained for a while, it can be very informative just to be in a ritual circle with a solid and well-tested method behind it over and over again. No book can give you that one.)
* Lots of connecting material, that makes the interplay between different aspects a lot more direct.

 
Or the Oathbound stuff won't really help you because it's only connected to that coven. I personally think that we produce our own Oathbound info just by practicing, writing things down, writing down if they worked or not, and so. I'm just not interested in seeing other people's BOS.

Jack

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Re: Silver Ravenwolf's Effect on Wicca/Paganism?
« Reply #77 on: May 06, 2013, 09:29:13 pm »
Quote from: FollowerofOdin;107899
Actually I have no problem with Oathbound stuff. Heck, when you write things in your BOS it becomes Oathbound, your own personal information. I have no interest in reading Oathbound material and leave it to covens to have their little mysteries. No, it's the flashy covers that I have a problem with and the fact that she uses Wicca and Witchcraft interchangeably.

 
"Oathbound" means that you're sworn not to share it with people outside of the group. So writing my own things down doesn't really make them oathbound to the best of my understanding. How are you using the word?
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Jenett

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Re: Silver Ravenwolf's Effect on Wicca/Paganism?
« Reply #78 on: May 06, 2013, 09:55:00 pm »
Quote from: Jack;107907
"Oathbound" means that you're sworn not to share it with people outside of the group. So writing my own things down doesn't really make them oathbound to the best of my understanding. How are you using the word?

 
This.

I have personal stuff I generally don't share.

I also have (as an initiate and priestess in an oathbound trad) specific stuff that *everyone in the tradition* has agreed not to share. (Plus some stuff that we generally don't share, but that - as a 3rd degree in the trad - I have some discretion in talking about with trusted friends not in the trad.)

They're three separate categories, though. Generally the oathbound stuff is the stuff that would significantly impact the experience of potential students/initiates, stuff that has privacy/security/well-being implications for trad members (both mundane and magical: how you get to the trad's astral temple space is oathbound, for example, just the way one has locks on one's home or car.)
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FollowerofOdin

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Re: Silver Ravenwolf's Effect on Wicca/Paganism?
« Reply #79 on: May 06, 2013, 10:02:01 pm »
Quote from: Jack;107907
"Oathbound" means that you're sworn not to share it with people outside of the group. So writing my own things down doesn't really make them oathbound to the best of my understanding. How are you using the word?

 
I'm talking about the coven's Book of Shadows being Oathbound material.

Jack

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Re: Silver Ravenwolf's Effect on Wicca/Paganism?
« Reply #80 on: May 06, 2013, 11:57:29 pm »
Quote from: FollowerofOdin;107910
I'm talking about the coven's Book of Shadows being Oathbound material.

 
So when you say "I personally think that we produce our own Oathbound info just by practicing, writing things down, writing down if they worked or not, and so," how do you reconcile that with not having a coven?
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FollowerofOdin

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Re: Silver Ravenwolf's Effect on Wicca/Paganism?
« Reply #81 on: May 07, 2013, 06:34:35 am »
Quote from: Jack;107918
So when you say "I personally think that we produce our own Oathbound info just by practicing, writing things down, writing down if they worked or not, and so," how do you reconcile that with not having a coven?

 
Okay, I'm going to eye-roll on your comment. I have info that I wouldn't share with anyone, at any time. If you say that doesn't make the things inside it oathbound then that's your right. But I do consider it oathbound and I wouldn't share it with anyone, not even if it could help them. I do plan to start a coven in the future, but for now I'm solitary. You have your opinion about Oathbound material and I have mine.

Jenett

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Re: Silver Ravenwolf's Effect on Wicca/Paganism?
« Reply #82 on: May 07, 2013, 08:00:00 am »
Quote from: FollowerofOdin;107934
Okay, I'm going to eye-roll on your comment. I have info that I wouldn't share with anyone, at any time. If you say that doesn't make the things inside it oathbound then that's your right. But I do consider it oathbound and I wouldn't share it with anyone, not even if it could help them. I do plan to start a coven in the future, but for now I'm solitary. You have your opinion about Oathbound material and I have mine.

 
That's the thing, though, I was trying to get at with the difference between "I have stuff I keep private" and "i have stuff that's oathbound"

My oathbound stuff is *specifically set out by oath*. Formal oath, in ritual, before both other people and the assembled gods and other entities present at that ritual. It is an unfixed and unchanging thing across time.

It is not just me saying "This is private." It is not even just *me saying in ritual* "This is private." An oath is a commitment between multiple parties, with specific terms and obligations and consequences if it's broken.

I also note that as my trad uses the term, we make our oaths before the Gods, and they're witnesses, but the oaths are about other humans. You can see some more theory of why this is, and why it matters over on my website at http://gleewood.org/seeking/broader-questions/oathbound-material/

Above and beyond that, talking about 'oathbound' for material that is strictly personal is just... not terribly practical? I mean, if you're not sharing it with anyone, there's no particular distinction between "this is personal stuff" and "this is oathbound stuff". At the point when you do have a coven, or whatever, *and that coven has mutual agreements about what the oathed stuff is*, then 'oathbound' becomes a much more useful term.

(I also think that if and when you work with other people with confidential stuff, you will find that a bunch of the stuff you thought would be in that 'oathbound' category isn't, and stuff that you never would have thought should be needs to be. And that some stuff that you consider critical to your personal practice is of no interest to anyone else you're working with, and some stuff that you're 'meh' about is something others really care about having private. But that's a totally different conversation.)
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Sarah

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Re: Silver Ravenwolf's Effect on Wicca/Paganism?
« Reply #83 on: May 07, 2013, 08:09:21 am »
Quote from: FollowerofOdin;107934
Okay, I'm going to eye-roll on your comment. I have info that I wouldn't share with anyone, at any time. If you say that doesn't make the things inside it oathbound then that's your right. But I do consider it oathbound and I wouldn't share it with anyone, not even if it could help them. I do plan to start a coven in the future, but for now I'm solitary. You have your opinion about Oathbound material and I have mine.


I think an oath is something you make in front of other people though. I think there's a difference between having made a promise to others not to share somethings and just deciding not to do it. Sharing things that are oathbound is a betrayal whereas sharing something that is personal and private just to you and your path is not
Knowing when to use a shovel is what being a witch is all about. Nanny Ogg, Witches Abroad

MadZealot

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Re: Silver Ravenwolf's Effect on Wicca/Paganism?
« Reply #84 on: May 07, 2013, 08:29:33 am »
Quote from: maybeimawitch;107943
I think an oath is something you make in front of other people though.

 
Yep.  An oath is stating a fact or making a promise in the presence of witnesses, and often invoking a deity or sacred symbol-- eg saying "So help me God" or placing one's hand upon the Bible.  
"Oathbound," literally: "bound by oath" in this context to keep certain privileged information secret or private, out of the hands of the uninitiated, etc.  
"Oathbound material": the aforementioned information which is deemed protected [bound] by oath.
Seems like the way Follower is using the term, "private" or perhaps "sacred" would make better substitutes.
Superman is uncircumcised. Change my mind.

Jack

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Silver Ravenwolf's Effect on Wicca/Paganism?
« Reply #85 on: May 07, 2013, 10:25:12 am »
Quote from: FollowerofOdin;107934
Okay, I'm going to eye-roll on your comment. I have info that I wouldn't share with anyone, at any time. If you say that doesn't make the things inside it oathbound then that's your right. But I do consider it oathbound and I wouldn't share it with anyone, not even if it could help them. I do plan to start a coven in the future, but for now I'm solitary. You have your opinion about Oathbound material and I have mine.

Having differing opinions about definitions of words can make communication challenging - the reason I asked in the first place was because I didn't understand what you meant. I thin the folks above me have already made some good points, so I won't repeat them. But I'll tell you that as a listener, "that's oathbound info," "that's taboo for me to discuss," and "I'm not comfortable discussing that" all sound different and convey different information even if they have the same result.
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Tamina

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Re: Silver Ravenwolf's Effect on Wicca/Paganism?
« Reply #86 on: May 07, 2013, 10:05:24 pm »
Quote from: jack;107665
ravenwolf and cunningham and amber k were in the suburban mall bookstore at a time when the suburban mall bookstore was all i had. I'll give her that, anyway.

 
this

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