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Author Topic: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire  (Read 14528 times)

Aiwelin

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Re: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #150 on: September 03, 2013, 12:46:22 pm »
Quote from: Riothamus12;120713
Fandom is not a religion. Fandom is not a philosophy and is for entertainment.


I can't believe we're still arguing this.  Look, facts are facts; and those are things like science and measurable phenomena and verified history.  All the other things are Not Facts.  

If you want to place value judgments and say that your Not Facts are better than mine, that's fine.  I'm not particularly concerned with what you think.  But please recognize the hypocrisy when you complain about people judging your Not Facts.
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MattyG

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Re: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #151 on: September 03, 2013, 05:55:07 pm »
Quote from: Riothamus12;120713
I am trying to restrain my anger but that comparison to something I consider worth less than the most fetid piece of refuse makes my blood boil. I also don’t like being associated with overzealous fans  rather than someone who happens to be a devout worshipper of old Gods and people thinking I worship satan or any deity not revered by the ancient peoples of the world from whom I draw heavy elements of my practice, beliefs, and wisdom from. There’s quite a big difference there. As I said, what I believe and do are not for my own amusement and thinking that someone might treat such things as mere amusement infuriates me, the same way some morons have shown up to pagan gatherings expecting it to be an endless buffet of goat sacrifices, free booze, and sex make me angry. Granted, booze, sex and sacrifice can be used religiously, but I think my point is clear. Seriously, I know people who have had encounters with said people.

I am trying to restrain my anger but that comparison to something I consider worth less than the most fetid piece of refuse makes my blood boil. I also don’t like being associated with slutty girls  rather than someone who has a healthy confidence in my body and people thinking I want sex like those whores who dress similarly. There’s quite a big difference there. As I said, what I believe and do are not for men's entertainment and thinking that someone might treat my outfit as an invitation for sex infuriates me, the same way some morons have shown up to parties expecting it to be a easy score make me angry. Granted, casual sex can be fun, but I think my point is clear. Seriously, I know people who have had encounters with said people.

Bolding mine. Dude, if it's the people thinking you're a devil worshiper who make you angry, be angry at them. Not at the people who do worship the devil. It's none of your business what gods people worship, what clothes they wear, or what books they find religiously inspiring. Honestly, I pity you, seeing how ashamed you are of your own religion. People who are comfortable with themselves don't find the need to be angry with people who live differently.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 05:56:05 pm by MattyG »

MattyG

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Re: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #152 on: September 03, 2013, 06:47:26 pm »
Quote from: MattyG;120784
Bolding mine. Dude, if it's the people thinking you're a devil worshiper who make you angry, be angry at them. Not at the people who do worship the devil. It's none of your business what gods people worship, what clothes they wear, or what books they find religiously inspiring. Honestly, I pity you, seeing how ashamed you are of your own religion. People who are comfortable with themselves don't find the need to be angry with people who live differently.

 
But seriously. If you're going to get angry every time someone thinks your religion is stupid, you've got a really shitty life ahead of you. Christians/Jews/Muslims are going to think you're stupid because they think your gods a fictitious at best. Atheists are going to think you're stupid because they think all gods are fictitious. Buddhists are going to think you're stupid because you're not focusing on breaking the cycle of rebirth. Hard polytheists are going to think you're stupid because you're too soft. Soft polytheists are going to think you're stupid because you're too hard. I'm going to think you're stupid because you follow a religion that inspires you to be angry and bigoted. And I fully expect that any person I meet will figure my religion is stupid as well. I can either get angry about it, or accept that everyone has to follow their own special brand of stupidity. Or, better yet, realize that everyone's perspective is valid for them, and maybe we're all just a little bit smart.

MattyG

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Re: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #153 on: September 04, 2013, 02:51:37 am »
Quote from: Riothamus12;120713
Fandom is not a religion. Fandom is not a philosophy and is for entertainment. Being part of a fandom is more about personal tastes and hobbies than any kind of pursuit of cosmic wisdom and certainly not spiritual purity. I can tell you that my religion is not a hobby. I do love it, I find joy in it, but it is not the joy of a child playing with his favorite toy or a grown man playing D&D with his friends, which I myself have derived amusement from. No, this is a jubilation that is closer to finding true love or dredging that one piece of truth that brings one peace up from the clutter of their life. I am not certain there is a proper word for it. It is a peace far greater than the calm between work breaks, a joy which I have no proper word to express, a way of being that pulses through the blood in my veins and the depths of my soul. I may love other things greatly, but they are not equivalent to this.

 
Sorry to post so much on this, but I find this topic enthralling, and I have a lot of thoughts on it :p

The reason everyone's so upset with you is because you're trying to define 1) What gods they may or may not have relationships with, and 2) What those relationships may or may not be like. When people do this with people, it's called bigotry.

For example, many homophobes try to dictate that people should not be allowed to have romantic relationships with people of the same gender. They even use some of the same arguments that you're using. They say that allowing gay marriage delegitimizes their straight marriages, and you act as if people worshiping "fictional" deities delegitimizes your relationship with your deities. You want to deny it the title "religion" just like they want to deny homosexual relationships with the title "marriage".

As to what the relationship should be like, you're insisting a solemn, "jubilation" is necessary for religion to be legitimate. Why? I don't have that kind of relationship with my gods. A lot of people don't. Some people view their relationship as a master/slave relationship. Some see it as a parent/child. Some as close friends. Some as a loose familial relationship. Some see it as a contract, and some even see it as a grudging respect. You're insisting that everyone's relationship should feel just like yours is like someone saying that all marriages should have a dominant husband and a submissive wife, or that the comfortable silence between a long-married couple is less legitimate than the fiery passion of newlyweds.

Pretty much, you have no more say over someone's relationship with their gods than you do with their marriages, friendships, or families.

veggiewolf

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Re: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #154 on: September 04, 2013, 12:46:50 pm »
Quote from: MattyG;120784
I am trying to restrain my anger but that comparison to something I consider worth less than the most fetid piece of refuse makes my blood boil. I also don’t like being associated with slutty girls  rather than someone who has a healthy confidence in my body and people thinking I want sex like those whores who dress similarly. There’s quite a big difference there. As I said, what I believe and do are not for men's entertainment and thinking that someone might treat my outfit as an invitation for sex infuriates me, the same way some morons have shown up to parties expecting it to be a easy score make me angry. Granted, casual sex can be fun, but I think my point is clear. Seriously, I know people who have had encounters with said people.

Bolding mine. Dude, if it's the people thinking you're a devil worshiper who make you angry, be angry at them. Not at the people who do worship the devil. It's none of your business what gods people worship, what clothes they wear, or what books they find religiously inspiring. Honestly, I pity you, seeing how ashamed you are of your own religion. People who are comfortable with themselves don't find the need to be angry with people who live differently.

 
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to MattyG again.
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MattyG

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Re: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #155 on: September 04, 2013, 04:26:47 pm »
Quote from: veggiewolf;120844
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to MattyG again.

 
Daww, that's so sweet :D

Lykeios Lysios

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Re: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #156 on: September 22, 2013, 06:12:50 pm »
Quote from: Riothamus12;119993

Do you model your life and philosophy after movies? Religion isn't just some convention you show up to dressed like your favorite character from Lord of The Rings or Dune. Even if you don't subscribe to that point of view, if you got Harry Potter jokes directed at you just for being pagan and believing in magick it might sour your attitude.

 
I'm a Jedi and I don't model my life or philosophy after movies. I modeled my philosophy years ago and my life is hardly finished being modeled. My philosophy happens to fit in well with the philosophy and spiritual beliefs first espoused by George Lucas then later expanded upon by Jedi Realist and Jediist groups. It has very, very little to do with the fiction.  We aren't role-players and we aren't a joke. We don't walk around wearing fake light-sabers and brown robes (with the rare exception). It is a syncretic belief system based mostly in philosophy, self-improvement, and life-long learning.

So, please, get off your high-horse and maybe read the doctrine for yourself before you dismiss it. Also, "magick" is a pretentious way of spelling "magic." (No offense intended to anyone, I just never got it. Its like Pagans refusing to take the name "Pagan" because they don't like the connotations. If you aren't comfortable with the word "magic" don't practice it.)
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Nyktipolos

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Re: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #157 on: September 22, 2013, 07:01:16 pm »
Quote from: Lykeios Lysios;122624
(No offense intended to anyone, I just never got it. Its like Pagans refusing to take the name "Pagan" because they don't like the connotations. If you aren't comfortable with the word "magic" don't practice it.)

 
I'm a little confused as to the comparison. Everyone is free to identify however they want IMHO as long as they are not appropriating a title they have no business holding. So I guess I find it a little boggling, and even a bit rude, that I am being told that what I practice is paganism so I should identify as a pagan because someone else thinks I should be, and that if I don't want to identify as pagan, I should not practice something that resembles paganism (as if that is my problem)? Nevermind that "paganism" is such a huge, varied group that can have practices vastly different from another while still identifying as "pagan".
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I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night." - Sarah Williams
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Lykeios Lysios

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Re: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #158 on: September 22, 2013, 07:26:14 pm »
Quote from: Nyktipolos;122639
I'm a little confused as to the comparison. Everyone is free to identify however they want IMHO as long as they are not appropriating a title they have no business holding. So I guess I find it a little boggling, and even a bit rude, that I am being told that what I practice is paganism so I should identify as a pagan because someone else thinks I should be, and that if I don't want to identify as pagan, I should not practice something that resembles paganism (as if that is my problem)? Nevermind that "paganism" is such a huge, varied group that can have practices vastly different from another while still identifying as "pagan".

Of course, everyone is free to identify however they like. I just personally hold the definition of "pagan" to be one that doesn't hold to an Abrahamic faith. There are other definitions, of course, but this is just how I see it. I don't always refer to  myself as "pagan" even, I have more specific signifiers that I use more often. Still, I have no problem claiming the umbrella term pagan. In any event, its really more about what others identify you, if their only term is "pagan" you are certainly free to correct them or mention that it is much more specific than that. I just don't happen to think there is any reason to be offended by being called a pagan as long as it isn't an obvious attempt at an insult. In fact, I wish I could edit that earlier post to say "people that are offended by being called a 'pagan' on basic principle." I don't care if someone takes the name for themself or not really.

Sorry, it was not my intention to tell you what you believe or practice is or is not paganism and I certainly did not mean to be rude. I just feel that when people get uptight about being called a pagan its the result of some minor or major insecurity. Personally I just correct the person and say "Yes, I am a pagan but that's an umbrella term" then proceed to refine their understanding of what I believe so they don't walk away thinking I'm a Wiccan or some other commonly heard-of neo-Pagan belief system.

Again, my apologies!
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 07:27:43 pm by Lykeios Lysios »
"Man fears the darkness, and so he scrapes away at the edges of it with fire." - Rei Ayanami
"Flow with whatever may happen and let your mind be free. Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the ultimate." - Zhuangzi

Cinder

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Re: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #159 on: April 20, 2017, 07:22:35 pm »
Quote from: Nyktelios;116220
While not technically real pagan religions, I'm interested in the religious themes that appear in the show and the books, although they don't really go too deeply into religion in the show. I'm only part of the way through the first book, so I haven't come across explicit explanations of the religions of the characters, except vaguely when a character mentions praying to "the seven faces of god" or something along those lines.

From what I've read online, the main religion practiced in the series is the Faith of the Seven, which involves the worship of seven deities who appear to be facets of one ultimate godhead. They include the Maiden, Mother, and Crone, a triad quite familiar to modern pagans, as well as the Father, Smith, and Warrior on the male side, and the genderless god called the Stranger, who represents mystery and death. Temples of the Seven are called "septs" (from the Latin word for "seven"), and priests are called septons and priestesses septas.

The Old Gods worshiped in the north are nameless deities, and this faith has more in common with animism than organized polytheism and the worship of specific, named gods. Trees called "Weirwood trees" are religious symbols, and there are no temples for organized worship.

There are also the Red God/Lord of Light, who seems a little sinister in the show, judging by the woman who follows him. From what I've read, this religion is more ecstatic and involves prophecy. There is also the Drowned God, worshiped as a local deity on the Iron Islands, which we haven't seen much of yet in the show.

Anyway, I thought this was interesting, and clearly there is a lot of pagan influence in these fictional religious traditions, and elements relevant to a discussion of pagan religions.

 
Bringing this thread back, because I hope that the benefit of time will bring more discussion of GRRM and the religions in his books.

If there was one series I would use as a basis for pop culture paganism, GRRM's work would be it.

The hints Martin shows about each religion are so interesting I'm always itching for more. Especially the religion of the Old Gods and the Drowned God. The adult drowning-and-reviving initiation into the religion seems hard core, to say the least.

OP didn't mention that the audience gets a few passages from the Seven-Pointed Star, the holy book for the faith of the Seven. I feel like these might prove ripe for studying, if anyone is interested in such a thing :)

I wonder whether there's a connection between the fact that the Old Gods are now the gods of the North, and that the only characters in the book capable of warg-ing come from the North?

Louisvillian

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Re: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #160 on: April 22, 2017, 03:35:11 am »
Quote from: Riothamus12;120713
Fandom is not a religion.
You can draw all sorts of comparisons between the way the devout handle their religions, and the way fans handle their fandoms.
More to the point, as far as Modern Paganism goes, there's less of a hard-and-fast line than you think, and it has to do with their history. Both Modern Paganism and Modern Fandom matured in the 1960s and 70s, often with the same sorts of people involved. Hell, one of the largest Neopagan organisations, the Church of All Worlds, was directly influenced by science fiction, particularly the works of Robert Heinlein. And some prominent sci-fi/fantasy authors inserted strong Neopagan themes into their work. Not to mention the casual assumption of polytheism in nearly all fantasy media.

Quote
Fandom is not a philosophy and is for entertainment.
Meh. If a religion isn't entertaining to its followers, it usually tends to go the way of the Dodo. Hence all the holidays and festivals and stuff.
And modern fiction is thick with philosophy. Always has been.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 03:36:00 am by Louisvillian »

Mandibear

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Re: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #161 on: May 26, 2017, 06:52:35 pm »

 
Bringing this thread back, because I hope that the benefit of time will bring more discussion of GRRM and the religions in his books.

If there was one series I would use as a basis for pop culture paganism, GRRM's work would be it.

The hints Martin shows about each religion are so interesting I'm always itching for more. Especially the religion of the Old Gods and the Drowned God. The adult drowning-and-reviving initiation into the religion seems hard core, to say the least.


I find the religion in the series absolutely fascinating.  I'm half in love with the description of the Many Faced God as well as the others that have been mentioned.  The pieces we've been presented are, like the rest of GRRM's writing, well put together and frankly gorgeous.

OP didn't mention that the audience gets a few passages from the Seven-Pointed Star, the holy book for the faith of the Seven. I feel like these might prove ripe for studying, if anyone is interested in such a thing :)

I wonder whether there's a connection between the fact that the Old Gods are now the gods of the North, and that the only characters in the book capable of warg-ing come from the North?

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