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Author Topic: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire  (Read 13798 times)

Louisvillian

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Re: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #135 on: August 29, 2013, 01:49:03 am »
Quote from: Aster Breo;120292
I don't think "true" and "factually correct" are always the same thing.

Depends on what you define "truth" as.

Aster Breo

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Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #136 on: August 29, 2013, 02:07:19 am »
Quote from: Louisvillian;120385
Depends on what you define "truth" as.

Exactly.
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MattyG

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Re: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #137 on: August 31, 2013, 02:22:21 pm »
Quote from: Riothamus12;120209
Where the hell did you get that from? I can't think of anything I said that suggested that.You accuse of something I did not do.Don't you dare level such utterly baseless accusations at me.

 
"I don't like it when people treat my religion as illegitimate, so I respond by calling other people's religions illegitimate"- Riothamus

Forgive me if I'm making this point overly crudely, but allow me to phrase your argument in different circumstances

"I don't like it when people sexually harass me because they think I'm dressed slutty and am 'asking for it'. Instead of being angry at the harassers, I get angry at people I think really dress slutty and 'are asking for it' because I think they make me look bad."

You, sir, are the worst kind of victim blamer.

Fireof9

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Re: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #138 on: August 31, 2013, 11:03:05 pm »
Quote from: Riothamus12;119993

Do you model your life and philosophy after movies? Religion isn't just some convention you show up to dressed like your favorite character from Lord of The Rings or Dune.

 
Ya know, 6 or 7 years ago my oldest son and I where watching LOTR. I half jokingly wondered aloud what may have ever happened to the Elves. Where did they go, why are not in our world any more. My son snorted and told me I was ridiculous, that elves had never existed. So as a matter of principal I set out to find out every thing I could about the myth and legend regarding elves. Somehow in that search I found myself here at TC, where I ended up finding my religion.

I would also like to add that I personally think that in the movie Thor, where they are sitting up on the rooftop and Thor explains Yggdrasil, is one of the most beautiful and profound explanations of it.
Really?  So, hey, want to go fishing?  I\'ve got a telescope, and it\'s going to be a dark night, so we should see the fish really well.
...what, I\'m not talking about fishing?  That\'s stargazing?  It\'s all doing-stuff, so it\'s the same thing, right?
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Fireof9

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Re: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #139 on: September 01, 2013, 12:35:59 am »
Quote from: Riothamus12;120182


It's not bigoted and ignorant to be able to distinguish reality from fiction.


I just noticed you are on a bit of a vacation from posting, but still...

It always amuses me when people start throwing around words like "reality" and "fact" when it comes to religious practices. Before I continue, let me be clear that I am not referring to historically proven, archaeologically based findings and facts. What I mean is the spiritual connection between a person and persons and their deity. Can you PROVE to me that your deity actually exists? Can you PROVE to me that you have had a communication with said deity? No you can't. I can't prove mine either, nor can anyone disprove it. So the only reality here is individual experience. It is not up to you, me, or anyone else to judge whether or not that experience actually happened or how real it is to them.
Really?  So, hey, want to go fishing?  I\'ve got a telescope, and it\'s going to be a dark night, so we should see the fish really well.
...what, I\'m not talking about fishing?  That\'s stargazing?  It\'s all doing-stuff, so it\'s the same thing, right?
-HeartShadow
 
Yesterday is history, Tomorrow is a mystery,Today is a gift,thats why the call it the present - Master Oogway

Finding the Owl -my blog
The Gwyddonic Order

MadZealot

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Re: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #140 on: September 01, 2013, 02:02:36 am »
Quote from: Fireof9;120572
I would also like to add that I personally think that in the movie Thor, where they are sitting up on the rooftop and Thor explains Yggdrasil, is one of the most beautiful and profound explanations of it.

 
More than you'd expect in a 'comic book movie,' innit?
Spider Man 3 never happened. And Epstein didn't kill himself.

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Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #141 on: September 01, 2013, 02:07:20 am »
Quote from: Fireof9;120572
I would also like to add that I personally think that in the movie Thor, where they are sitting up on the rooftop and Thor explains Yggdrasil, is one of the most beautiful and profound explanations of it.

I rather loved that too.
"We're all stories, in the end. Make it a good one, eh?"
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Riothamus12

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Re: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #142 on: September 03, 2013, 01:47:48 am »
Quote from: Louisvillian;120291
In one perspective, I do agree. As in, in my private beliefs and personal opinion, I do think that there is, generally, a divide between factual deities and fictional deities.

But there is a great deal of power in myth. Our images of the gods, and conversely how they present themselves to us, is affected by our stories of the gods. And what is fiction but modern, quasi-secular mythology? What is fandom but religion for the 21st century? There's more than just that as a comparison; mythology is storytelling, but whether or not it is telling the truth is dependent on the perspective of the person in question. To an ancient Greek, sure, the Iliad was as true as the air they breathed; but is it true to a Christian? To an atheist? To an Egyptian far away, with their own gods and stories? Things become murkier, and much more relative.

And then we get into certain systems of ritual or folk magic that believe that the energy you raise can grow a consciousness of its own. And that creativity--even something as simple as writing a story--has an energy none too different.

Fandom is not a religion. Fandom is not a philosophy and is for entertainment. Being part of a fandom is more about personal tastes and hobbies than any kind of pursuit of cosmic wisdom and certainly not spiritual purity. I can tell you that my religion is not a hobby. I do love it, I find joy in it, but it is not the joy of a child playing with his favorite toy or a grown man playing D&D with his friends, which I myself have derived amusement from. No, this is a jubilation that is closer to finding true love or dredging that one piece of truth that brings one peace up from the clutter of their life. I am not certain there is a proper word for it. It is a peace far greater than the calm between work breaks, a joy which I have no proper word to express, a way of being that pulses through the blood in my veins and the depths of my soul. I may love other things greatly, but they are not equivalent to this.

Quote from: Fireof9;120582
I just noticed you are on a bit of a vacation from posting, but still...

It always amuses me when people start throwing around words like "reality" and "fact" when it comes to religious practices. Before I continue, let me be clear that I am not referring to historically proven, archaeologically based findings and facts. What I mean is the spiritual connection between a person and persons and their deity. Can you PROVE to me that your deity actually exists? Can you PROVE to me that you have had a communication with said deity? No you can't. I can't prove mine either, nor can anyone disprove it. So the only reality here is individual experience. It is not up to you, me, or anyone else to judge whether or not that experience actually happened or how real it is to them.

 I believe that I can. I believe it has been prove many times over. Albeit perhaps not in the most direct fashion and it would require a massive amount of time for me to compile a proper thesis However, given that I am constantly revising what I believe and asking questions, that thesis would never likely be finished. I would like to publish such a thing, but my constant reassessment and revision would stand as barriers. That and it would feel like a damned vanity project unless someone else more prominent than I told me it would be a good idea.
Quote from: MattyG;120559
"I don't like it when people treat my religion as illegitimate, so I respond by calling other people's religions illegitimate"- Riothamus

Forgive me if I'm making this point overly crudely, but allow me to phrase your argument in different circumstances

"I don't like it when people sexually harass me because they think I'm dressed slutty and am 'asking for it'. Instead of being angry at the harassers, I get angry at people I think really dress slutty and 'are asking for it' because I think they make me look bad."

You, sir, are the worst kind of victim blamer.
I am trying to restrain my anger but that comparison to something I consider worth less than the most fetid piece of refuse makes my blood boil. I also don’t like being associated with overzealous fans  rather than someone who happens to be a devout worshipper of old Gods and people thinking I worship satan or any deity not revered by the ancient peoples of the world from whom I draw heavy elements of my practice, beliefs, and wisdom from. There’s quite a big difference there. As I said, what I believe and do are not for my own amusement and thinking that someone might treat such things as mere amusement infuriates me, the same way some morons have shown up to pagan gatherings expecting it to be an endless buffet of goat sacrifices, free booze, and sex make me angry. Granted, booze, sex and sacrifice can be used religiously, but I think my point is clear. Seriously, I know people who have had encounters with said people.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 01:50:19 am by Riothamus12 »
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I started a blog. Feel free to peruse. It's still in it's early stages and I have to write more, so do bare with me if it's all a little basic so far.

MadZealot

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Re: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #143 on: September 03, 2013, 03:21:02 am »
Jesus Hezekiah Christ.  Has it been a week already since this licorice pizza last skipped?

Quote from: Riothamus12;120713
Fandom is not a religion. Fandom is not a philosophy and is for entertainment. Being part of a fandom is more about personal tastes and hobbies than any kind of pursuit of cosmic wisdom and certainly not spiritual purity. I can tell you that my religion is not a hobby. I do love it, I find joy in it, but it is not the joy of a child playing with his favorite toy or a grown man playing D&D with his friends, which I myself have derived amusement from.

 
But for lots of people, religion IS fandom-- that they celebrate it, jubilate it, and have fun in their devotion.  Who are you to gainsay their practice and demean it to the point of calling it a fucking game?
Maybe they dress up a certain way-- so the fuck what?  I've worn a robe when in Circle, a coat & tie in Church, and a full tux in my Masonic temple.  Maybe they play certain music, drink a certain drink, make certain kinds of jokes-- if you find these problematic you would feel out of place at a good Beltane fest.  Maybe they all read the same books-- like, say, Christians have the Bible in common!!!  
I don't see why personal tastes and hobbies get such a bad rap from you.  Personally, I love my hobbies.

Oh, and this--
Quote
I find joy in [religion/worship] but it is not the joy of a child playing with his favorite toy or a grown man playing D&D with his friends  /snip

I believe what you're trying to argue is based on a false equivalence-- ie comparing/conflating ecstatic worship and a tabletop RPG.  As long as the wheels are misaligned, your cart ain't gonna go far, no matter how you push it.
The problem isn't that their ways are less 'serious' as yours are; the problem is your refusal to respect anything that's not quite as stiff as your own arbitrary yet oddly priapic rigidity.  Relax.  Rub it out.
The problem ain't them, bub.

Quote
I also don’t like being associated with overzealous fans rather than someone who happens to be a devout worshipper...

You'd rather be seen as an overzealous zealot.  
Jesus Holla'back Christ, and people think I'm the mad one.  

Here's a thought: that's a lot to be angry over, all that inane shit you can't control.  
Google 'serenity prayer,' man.
... and the wisdom to know the difference.
Spider Man 3 never happened. And Epstein didn't kill himself.

savveir

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Re: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #144 on: September 03, 2013, 03:50:18 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;120717
Jesus Hezekiah Christ.  Has it been a week already since this licorice pizza last skipped?
.....snip[/I]

 You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to MadZealot again.
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Morag

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Re: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #145 on: September 03, 2013, 04:43:24 am »
Quote from: savvy;120719
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to MadZealot again.

 
Ditto.
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RandallS

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Re: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #146 on: September 03, 2013, 08:37:32 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;120717
The problem ain't them, bub.

Well said. Other people have the same right to their religious beliefs and practices as Riothamus12 does. The fact that Riothamus12 objects to their beliefs and practices because they are not serious enough (or whatever) for him does not reduce their right to their beliefs and practices.
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Re: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #147 on: September 03, 2013, 09:24:31 am »
Quote from: RandallS;120729
Well said. Other people have the same right to their religious beliefs and practices as Riothamus12 does. The fact that Riothamus12 objects to their beliefs and practices because they are not serious enough (or whatever) for him does not reduce their right to their beliefs and practices.

That right there, the degradation of "not serious beliefs," there's no polite term to describe what that is.  
And on page 8 of this thread, this same person laments that "no one will ever treat our beliefs as equal to all others" yet intentionally labels others as fanciful, fanclubbers, RPGers, whatever.  This seriously needs a Scumbag Steve's Hat meme.
To complain about an axis of oppression, whilst doing the same damn thing you're lamenting... well the dichotomy of word and action here is, politely put, intellectually dishonest.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 09:28:31 am by MadZealot »
Spider Man 3 never happened. And Epstein didn't kill himself.

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Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #148 on: September 03, 2013, 10:20:29 am »
Quote from: Riothamus12;120713
I believe that I can. I believe it has been prove many times over. Albeit perhaps not in the most direct fashion and it would require a massive amount of time for me to compile a proper thesis However, given that I am constantly revising what I believe and asking questions, that thesis would never likely be finished. I would like to publish such a thing, but my constant reassessment and revision would stand as barriers. That and it would feel like a damned vanity project unless someone else more prominent than I told me it would be a good idea.

MZ has covered pretty much all the things I'd say in response to your third part, so I'm gonna speak to this instead.

First, I would love to see a pagan version of The Case For Christ. If you think you have irrefutable proof that your gods are the most realest of all the gods, ffs, bring that to the table. It's got to be pretty compelling to justify your behavior here, right?

I do think it's kind of sad that you need validation to see why such a project as offering irrefutable proof that you understand the true nature of the gods is vanity. You clearly want to share your opinions or else you wouldn't still be arguing this. Why don't you want to back them up?
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
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Fireof9

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Re: Religion in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #149 on: September 03, 2013, 11:56:15 am »
Quote from: Riothamus12;120713

 I believe that I can. I believe it has been prove many times over. Albeit perhaps not in the most direct fashion and it would require a massive amount of time for me to compile a proper thesis However, given that I am constantly revising what I believe and asking questions, that thesis would never likely be finished. I would like to publish such a thing, but my constant reassessment and revision would stand as barriers. That and it would feel like a damned vanity project unless someone else more prominent than I told me it would be a good idea.


Please, enlighten me. Show me one bit of proof, one bit of proof that is not UPG, and please bear in mind that evidence and proof are NOT the same thing.
I am not in any way saying your deity are not real, I expect that they are, I know mine are. I know it because of my experiences. But thats just it, they are MY experiences. They prove nothing to anyone outside of me and possibly they are convincing to some others that honour the same deities. But they do not stand as PROOF.
Seems to me from your above post that you are more interested in being a "Big Name Pagan". That dude is simply ego. Someone more prominent than you? What the hell does that even mean? I will tell you this much, I have learned more from every day lay people on this board than I have from the so called "prominent" people of the Pagan community. You could do yourself a big favour and pay attention because there are some brilliant, educated and DEEPLY spiritual people that are trying to talk with you.

Quote from: Riothamus12;120169
They aren't the same. These are not visions received from Gods, spirits, or something of that nature. They are not often written with spirituality at the heart of it or the driving force behind them. I scarcely hear an author say they were so much as inspired by such things, not many pagans especially. Though there aren't many of us these days so I suppose the lack of numbers in the ranks of known authors shouldn't be surprising.


I was reading back and saw this and had a couple thoughts.

1. How do you know? Its not like it would be a great career move for them to go about saying that.

2. Does this mean that the Nordic Edda's and Saga's are to be dismissed? Is pretty much all of the Celtic myth and lore to be dismissed? Because all any of them are is the oral history recorded in writing. They are not inspired by visions or visits from Gods or spirits.

3. Just because they are not deity who's names you are not familiar with does not mean they are not real. Who is to say that the Gods and Goddesses we do know of have not continued to have offspring, those offspring had their own and so forth? How do you know that they did not directly or indirectly inspire some of the authors in question?

Thing is Riothamus......... you seem to have a lot of opinions. But you don't seem to have a lot to back them up. You are the same guy that tried answering questions about Gwyddon in a thread where a Gwyddon was already posting the answers. You displayed such an ignorance of information there that its really hard to take much of what you say seriously. I however suspect that you are fairly young and I can see that you are very passionate. My advice would be to slow down a bit, direct that passion into being a better person, showing compassion and respect for others. By doing that you can use that passion to learn a great deal.
Really?  So, hey, want to go fishing?  I\'ve got a telescope, and it\'s going to be a dark night, so we should see the fish really well.
...what, I\'m not talking about fishing?  That\'s stargazing?  It\'s all doing-stuff, so it\'s the same thing, right?
-HeartShadow
 
Yesterday is history, Tomorrow is a mystery,Today is a gift,thats why the call it the present - Master Oogway

Finding the Owl -my blog
The Gwyddonic Order

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