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Author Topic: Reality VS Superstitions  (Read 4770 times)

Fionnbharr

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Re: Reality VS Superstitions
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2013, 05:17:52 pm »
Quote from: Marukai;92171

No one can really say for certain who Lilith was. There are only references to her in the Bible and Dead Sea Scrolls.

So who is she? A Deity?

 
After hearing a story about the ancient gods loosing their divine body thus the immortal and mortal part of them was no longer intertwined. Forcing the mortal part to incarnate in mortal form and the immortal to be trapped in the spirit world (some called it the Astral Planes) until they both realize it and merges once more. I think I am starting to call it the light world. But after hearing the story I got the idea that while the immortal part of Artemis was trapped in the light world the mortal part of her was captured and split in half (light and dark) when she refused to bow down before Adam thus creating Eve (light/orderly) and Lilith (dark/chaotic). Just thoughts...
Grief and sorrow grows on the far banks of the river Styx, go there and visit them and you might not find your own way back home. - Achilles

Valentine

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Re: Reality VS Superstitions
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2013, 05:26:14 pm »
Quote from: Fionnbharr;92177
After hearing a story about the ancient gods loosing their divine body thus the immortal and mortal part of them was no longer intertwined. Forcing the mortal part to incarnate in mortal form and the immortal to be trapped in the spirit world (some called it the Astral Planes) until they both realize it and merges once more. I think I am starting to call it the light world. But after hearing the story I got the idea that while the immortal part of Artemis was trapped in the light world the mortal part of her was captured and split in half (light and dark) when she refused to bow down before Adam thus creating Eve (light/orderly) and Lilith (dark/chaotic). Just thoughts...

 
...well, if that's your thing, that's your thing, but it's not attested anywhere, and involves a handful of very different pantheons and cosmologies all mashed together.
"Let be be finale of seem." - Wallace Stevens, "The Emperor of Ice-Cream"
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Fionnbharr

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Re: Reality VS Superstitions
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2013, 06:11:30 pm »
Quote from: Valentine;92178
...well, if that's your thing, that's your thing, but it's not attested anywhere, and involves a handful of very different pantheons and cosmologies all mashed together.

 
Yes and never stated it was nothing more than a thought that came to me. It might be spot on and it might not be. To me it does not matter that much whether it is or not... mythology is just thoughts in our head are they not? and some keep the different pantheons/cosmologies separate while others stir their own together in their cauldron of mythology :D
Grief and sorrow grows on the far banks of the river Styx, go there and visit them and you might not find your own way back home. - Achilles

Marukai

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Re: Reality VS Superstitions
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2013, 06:55:49 pm »
Quote from: Snowdrop;92173
There is evidence that Lilith goes back quite a bit further than that; Sumerian literature mentions a demon named Lilitu.  She was also possibly known to the Canaanites, of whom the Israelites were a daughter culture.  In both the Sumerian and Canaanite cases, she is characterized as a demon who caused illness in children, which is probably why she was later characterized as refusing to submit to Adam sexually.  (I.e. she was already associated with sterility and with the death of children, and therefore she also became the symbol for refusing to have sex in "right" way.) My take, which you can agree with or not, is that Judaism and later Christianity took a being that was already regarded as demonic and fit her into their particular framework.


It's still conflicting because there are no writings or Gimoires that discuss how to Evoke or Invoke... You would think Solomons Grimoire would have something about her within its pages, but there is nothing... The same goes for the Demon Asag that stems from the Sumerian era



Asag:

Quote
In the Sumerian mythological poem Lugale, Asag is a monstrous demon, so hideous that his presence alone makes fish boil alive in the rivers.

He was said to be accompanied into battle by an army of rock demon offspring - born of his union with the mountains themselves.

He was vanquished by the heroic Akkadian deity Ninurta, using Sharur, his enchanted talking mace, after seeking the counsel of his father, the god Enlil.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 06:56:12 pm by Marukai »

Snowdrop

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Re: Reality VS Superstitions
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2013, 07:01:45 pm »
Quote from: Marukai;92187
It's still conflicting because there are no writings or Gimoires that discuss how to Evoke or Invoke... You would think Solomons Grimoire would have something about her within its pages, but there is nothing... The same goes for the Demon Asag that stems from the Sumerian era

 
Well, if your definition of something being real means that it's featured in a grimoire, you are going to have to accept that, by that definition, most entities mentioned in most world religions aren't real.  Which is fine, if that's what you believe, but you do have to realize that it does leave you with a small pool of entities to draw from.  

That being said, I don't think most people on here would agree with the idea that something's getting a mention in a grimoire is the ultimate litmus test for it's existence or lack thereof. ;)

Marukai

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Re: Reality VS Superstitions
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2013, 07:09:27 pm »
Quote from: Snowdrop;92188
Well, if your definition of something being real means that it's featured in a grimoire, you are going to have to accept that, by that definition, most entities mentioned in most world religions aren't real.  Which is fine, if that's what you believe, but you do have to realize that it does leave you with a small pool of entities to draw from.  

That being said, I don't think most people on here would agree with the idea that something's getting a mention in a grimoire is the ultimate litmus test for it's existence or lack thereof. ;)


So what entities can we really confirm to be real? I say yes to Demons because of all of the crazy possession cases... Faeries, yes because they have been talked about for ages. Angels, I'm not sure, because they stem exclusively from Abrahamic monotheistic religions. Jinn or Genies, yes because they predate Islam and have been documented as being entities that exist in a parallel dimension to that of mankind. Merfolk, I cannot say for sure. Mermaids have been talked about since BC times, but some say that it was the hallucinations from men on boats that were vastly malnourished and were horny, so a mermaid would be quite a seductive hallucination:D:

Jack

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Re: Reality VS Superstitions
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2013, 07:13:12 pm »
Quote from: Marukai;92187
It's still conflicting because there are no writings or Gimoires that discuss how to Evoke or Invoke... You would think Solomons Grimoire would have something about her within its pages, but there is nothing... The same goes for the Demon Asag that stems from the Sumerian era

 
That's the standard you're using? Is it safe to assume you're referring only to the Greater and Lesser Keys of Solomon, or is there something else you're looking at?

Perhaps she's not in there because Solomon never conquered her? ;)
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
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Marukai

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Re: Reality VS Superstitions
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2013, 07:16:08 pm »
Quote from: Jack;92190
That's the standard you're using? Is it safe to assume you're referring only to the Greater and Lesser Keys of Solomon, or is there something else you're looking at?

Perhaps she's not in there because Solomon never conquered her? ;)

 
The Greater...

I just think she's a fable... In lore Solomon was given a ring that gave him control over demons because he only asked for wisdom from God instead of wealth. Lilith is a Demon, so I cannot see why she would me exempt from the power from the so called ring.

Laveth

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Re: Reality VS Superstitions
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2013, 07:24:15 pm »
Quote from: Snowdrop;92188
Well, if your definition of something being real means that it's featured in a grimoire, you are going to have to accept that, by that definition, most entities mentioned in most world religions aren't real.  Which is fine, if that's what you believe, but you do have to realize that it does leave you with a small pool of entities to draw from.  

That being said, I don't think most people on here would agree with the idea that something's getting a mention in a grimoire is the ultimate litmus test for it's existence or lack thereof. ;)

 
This, very much this.

Snowdrop

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Re: Reality VS Superstitions
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2013, 07:25:21 pm »
Quote from: Marukai;92189
Faeries, yes because they have been talked about for ages.


But by that standard, surely Lilith is also real, given that traditions about her go back to . . . I believe the third millennium BC?  

Quote
Angels, I'm not sure, because they stem exclusively from Abrahamic monotheistic religions.


And polytheistic religions of the ancient Near East.  

Quote
Jinn or Genies, yes because they predate Islam and have been documented as being entities that exist in a parallel dimension to that of mankind.


How does one document such a thing?

Jack

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Re: Reality VS Superstitions
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2013, 07:39:25 pm »
Quote from: Marukai;92189
So what entities can we really confirm to be real? I say yes to Demons because of all of the crazy possession cases... Faeries, yes because they have been talked about for ages. Angels, I'm not sure, because they stem exclusively from Abrahamic monotheistic religions. Jinn or Genies, yes because they predate Islam and have been documented as being entities that exist in a parallel dimension to that of mankind. Merfolk, I cannot say for sure. Mermaids have been talked about since BC times, but some say that it was the hallucinations from men on boats that were vastly malnourished and were horny, so a mermaid would be quite a seductive hallucination:D:

 
Wait, you believe in demons but not angels... and your source for believing in demons is based on the authority of a Biblical figure. Solomon comes from those selfsame Abrahamic religions.
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Re: Reality VS Superstitions
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2013, 07:51:47 pm »
Quote from: Marukai;92189
So what entities can we really confirm to be real?


Humans and other fauna, flora and mineral life one has actually seen and touched. With a fitting philosophical twist, even then you can't be absolutely sure of the confirmed realness of them. ;)

Jack

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Re: Reality VS Superstitions
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2013, 08:05:26 pm »
Quote from: Marukai;92192
The Greater...

I just think she's a fable... In lore Solomon was given a ring that gave him control over demons because he only asked for wisdom from God instead of wealth. Lilith is a Demon, so I cannot see why she would me exempt from the power from the so called ring.

 
How do you even use the invokations in the Greater Key? You don't strike me as the "O Ye Mighty God, help me out here!" type.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
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Marukai

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Re: Reality VS Superstitions
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2013, 08:29:44 pm »
Quote from: Snowdrop;92194
But by that standard, surely Lilith is also real, given that traditions about her go back to . . . I believe the third millennium BC?  

 

And polytheistic religions of the ancient Near East.  

 

How does one document such a thing?

 
True, but has Lilith ever manifested as a mist or a sort of apparition that Jinns and Faeries manifest as? Has Lilith ever been attributed to supernatural sleep paralysis?

Marukai

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Re: Reality VS Superstitions
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2013, 08:37:01 pm »
Quote from: Jack;92200
How do you even use the invokations in the Greater Key? You don't strike me as the "O Ye Mighty God, help me out here!" type.

 
The invocations that I do are not anything out of the book. The book is full of holes. It is so distorted because the Grimoire was in Ancient Hebrew. I Invoke through deep thought to the point of nothing is in existence except myself. When I get to this state I can somehow call a Demon from this Grimoire. I want to try this with Astaroth or Paimon, but I am very scared because these are both very... powerful Demons. I have Invoked Bure only, but his communication is very weak. I think it is because the Sun is not in Sagittarius. When the Sun enters Sagittarius the Grimoire states that this is the time that this Demon is most powerful. I did at one point bring up Asmodeus in my thoughts and felt terrified because I did get an answer back in a roaring voice this was back in November when this Demon King is the most powerful.

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