A Medieval Mind Set V.S Not Believing in anything

[Sophia C]

I find that one of the most pernicious influences of Christian supercessionism is the various retconning of Hebrew scripture to reinterpret passages as though they function in a Christian cosmology.  Unlike in Christianity and Islam, both of which have very developed eschatologies, there is almost nothing about any kind of afterlife in Hebrew scripture and tradition until very very recently--there's comparatively very little even in the Talmud, the Midrash, even in most of the mystical texts like the books Bahir and Zohar.  There's a few mentions of Sheol, which is ill-defined, and some extra-Bibilical talk about the Well of Souls, and a mention here or there, mostly among mystics, of a garden of paradise, though it's not clear if it's the kind of paradise dead people go to.  There's not a divine reward and punishment sorting system.  And the stuff about the Messiah mostly, according to any decent scholarship I've seen, refers to creating a more just world right here in the land of the living.  One of the few books of Hebrew scripture that makes any explicit statements about what happens after death is Qoheleth, and it basically says, "You die and your body rots, like any other animal, and we don't really know anything about after that, so let's focus on this world, shall we."

Certainly modern Jews have taken on some of the eschatological notions that have developed in the non-Jewish world since those times, and many modern Jews, especially after centuries in diaspora, have a notion of Heaven or a "world to come" or a Messiah whose work is a little less of this world, and some few have even taken on a notion of Hell.  No arguing that.  It's not traditional, though, and it's not scriptural, and any argument otherwise mostly revolves around Christian reinterpretations.

Very interesting. How does that square with the popular tradition that links Yom Kippur to God writing a person's name in the Book of Life? Is that purely recent or popular mythology, rather than standard theology?

My experience with Judaism is much more of popular belief than rabbinic theology. I do think that popular and mainstream belief is the key to a religion's character, as much as 'official' theology - that's part of what I'm arguing in my thesis at the moment - people and pulpit, more than seminary, shape practical belief. That's particularly focused on Christianity, but I think there is evidence of that in other religions too, from a sociological (rather than theological) perspective. But I haven't researched Judaism beyond the Bible and some of the midrashic literature - so my sense of that, in relation to Jewish concepts of the afterlife, is anecdotal. I think (probably quite vague) belief in it is currently quite widespread, though.

[MattyG]

If you study history and anthropology, the trajectory leading up indicated we should have been on the moon shortly after Leonardo Da Vinci lived, not centuries later. The regressions we've experienced not due to "natural" population bottlenecks are almost solely products of religious origin, or social-wildly-fueled-by-religion origin.

 
Really, I find this assertion to be rather suspect. I don't see how religion would have been negatively impacting cultures in the near and far-East from making these scientific advances. Furthermore, I'd suspect that the general lack of scientific advancement in the West had more to do with the fall of the Roman Empire and the institution of feudalism.

[MattyG]

People can choose to believe in whatever they wish.

 
This might be a little off topic and pedantic, but this statement always bothers me. Personally, I can't choose what I believe. I can't just turn off the part of my brain that believes that the sky is blue and convince myself that it's orange. I didn't just look at all the available religions and say "I'm going to choose to believe that this best describes the world I live in." It just resonated with me. But, yeah, I know this is kind of nit-picking.

[MattyG]

The movie I saw this weekend was about giant monsters battling giant robots.

I still do not believe in either kaiju or giant robots.

 
Do you dare deny the word of our lord and savior, Godzilla? Prepare to face the wrath of his nuclear breath, unbeliever! :p

[MadZealot]

The movie I saw this weekend was about giant monsters battling giant robots.

I still do not believe in either kaiju or giant robots.

Do you dare deny the word of our lord and savior, Godzilla? Prepare to face the wrath of his nuclear breath, unbeliever! :p

I'm pretty sure that means you won't go to Japan when you die.

[Melamphoros]

I'm pretty sure that means you won't go to Japan when you die.

 
You mean I don't get an eternity of bizarre cartoons and used schoolgirl panties in vending machines?  What will I do with my time?

[MadZealot]

You mean I don't get an eternity of bizarre cartoons and used schoolgirl panties in vending machines?  What will I do with my time?

 
There's always Final Fantasy MXXVI.

[Dark Midnight]

This might be a little off topic and pedantic, but this statement always bothers me. Personally, I can't choose what I believe. I can't just turn off the part of my brain that believes that the sky is blue and convince myself that it's orange. I didn't just look at all the available religions and say "I'm going to choose to believe that this best describes the world I live in." It just resonated with me. But, yeah, I know this is kind of nit-picking.

 
My point is that I chose to leave the faith that I was brought up with and become a Pagan. I, and many other people, chose which faith they believe in. There is a hell of a difference in deciding which religion you believe in and in trying to believe that the sky is a different colour. The two things do not correspond in any way.

I could decide tomorrow to not believe in the faith I follow- it is my right to do so and I believe that it's often referred to as a crisis of faith. It's is up to me whether I decide to continue on the path I am on or to follow a new one. Every person has the right to believe in whatever they wish. And, as long as they aren't trying to convert me or trying the 'you're wrong and I'm right' thing, I am perfectly happy for them to do so.

That was my point.

[Sophia C]

This might be a little off topic and pedantic, but this statement always bothers me. Personally, I can't choose what I believe. I can't just turn off the part of my brain that believes that the sky is blue and convince myself that it's orange. I didn't just look at all the available religions and say "I'm going to choose to believe that this best describes the world I live in." It just resonated with me. But, yeah, I know this is kind of nit-picking.

I've had this argument with my atheist partner quite a lot. They say you can't choose what you believe (they'd actually quite like to have faith, but don't). I say every day I wake up and say hi to my gods and go out to connect with the land, I'm making active choices about what I believe - I could equally choose to wake up and say "There are no gods". It does depend on how you define 'choose', to some extent - but no one forced faith on me. In fact, when I was first researching Paganism, I decided to act as if various things I was reading about were true - such as the existence of many gods - and see what happened. Choice came first. Faith followed.

[MattyG]

Choice came first. Faith followed.

 
I suppose it can vary from person to person. That's just not how I respond to faith. I can personally choose my actions and the paths I follow, but not how I feel or believe.

[MattyG]

I suppose it can vary from person to person. That's just not how I respond to faith. I can personally choose my actions and the paths I follow, but not how I feel or believe.

 
Additionally, I'm a bit of a determinist at heart, so the idea of "choice" is already a very tenuous concept with me. :p

[EclecticWheel]

Choice came first. Faith followed.

 
I've had this experience with certain beliefs -- behaving a certain way, then experiencing a change in perspective.

I don't believe that choices come from an autonomous self, though.  I wouldn't call myself a determinist, but I ultimately do not believe in free will.

[Ghostlight]

I suppose it can vary from person to person. That's just not how I respond to faith. I can personally choose my actions and the paths I follow, but not how I feel or believe.

 
This is also how it works for me. For example, I know for a fact that I couldn’t choose to believe in the Christian god. Why? Because I really, really tried. I was brought up Catholic and to me that was an entirely positive experience. I even went to a Catholic girls’ school for a few years that I really loved. I love the rituals and mysticism in Catholicism and all the Catholics I grew up with – my family and friends, the nuns at my school – were loving, caring people that always encouraged me to be critical and think for myself.

The only problem was that all the time I never really thought that God was real, which of course means the whole Christian worldview crumbles to dust (if there is no God, Jesus obviously can't be his son, he can't die for our sins and there probably aren't even "sins" in the Christian sense as there is no higher being to forbid anything and get mad when you do it anyway, etc.) And for a long time this was a big conflict for me because I really wanted to be Catholic and so I tried to believe, but eventually had to accept that I can’t and so I left the Church.

Now, of course I could’ve chosen to stay Catholic anyway, for the community and the “feeling” of it. But I felt dishonest pretending to share the faith when I really don’t. I’m really not capable of changing the fact that the Apostle’s Creed – the foundation of the faith – is complete nonsense to me from beginning to end and always has been since I was old enough to actively think about it.

So to sum up, I really can’t completely choose what I believe. I do think that performing certain actions can potentially change your perspective (in all aspects of life, not just spirituality). But not necessarily, just like spending most of my life as an active Catholic, attending church regularly (even being a altar girl for several years) did nothing to convince me that Catholicism is "real".  I can choose how to live my beliefs, I can choose to explore this and that and see if it works. But if it doesn’t work there’s nothing I can do about it.

[MattyG]

I’m really not capable of changing the fact that the Apostle’s Creed – the foundation of the faith – is complete nonsense to me from beginning to end and always has been since I was old enough to actively think about it.

 
I was raised Episcopalian, and they have the Nicene Creed. Are those the same thing? I had a similar experience. One day I was going over the creed, and I realized that I simply disagree with each individual assertion in it. That's what made me go from a Christian with henotheistic leanings to a full on pagan polytheist.

[Valentine]

I was raised Episcopalian, and they have the Nicene Creed. Are those the same thing? I had a similar experience. One day I was going over the creed, and I realized that I simply disagree with each individual assertion in it. That's what made me go from a Christian with henotheistic leanings to a full on pagan polytheist.

 
They are essentially very slight variations of each other, yes.
To be fair, I know a lot of Christians, including Christian clergy, who are not fond of the Creed, and privately edit it while reciting it or only mouth it, but aren't allowed to change it.

When I go to Mass, I just...shift some things.  I am happy to say I believe in a God, a Father, etc., etc...