collapse

* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: Pop Culture Paganism  (Read 12176 times)

wadjet

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 327
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
    • http://eirikra.blogspot.com/
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2013, 11:09:32 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;109216



 
I grew up in a state with a 0.6% Black population. I must therefore be friends with someone who is 0.6% black, haha. (I...just wanted to share that. :ashamed: )


Anyway, I've read a bunch more recent blogposts besides the ones linked, and the giant drama really DOES seem to be about what I was talking about, except that people are having serious difficulty in saying it. (Everyone's getting defensive because they feel attacked, though I can't even quite figure out why....both sides of the argument seem pretty clear.)

Many blogs on the "pro-fiction" side strongly support the opinion that "true worship is true worship" and that it is irrelevant to anyone but the practitioner whether the god is considered fictional or not.

But again, my argument is - and I think it's the same argument other people are going for - is that the majority of fiction-worshipers aren't actually worshiping anything. Not that they "aren't worshiping anything" but that they "aren't worshiping anything".

SunflowerP

  • Host
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Calgary AB
  • Posts: 8308
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 266
  • Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
    • View Profile
    • If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough
  • Religion: Eclectic religious Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: sie/hir/hirs/hirself
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2013, 11:24:26 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;109199
Yeah, I have a pet peeve about people whose engagement with paganism is all about whether or not their favorite god likes them back or what brand of chocolate they prefer.  The whole "How do you find a patron god" thing is so overplayed, dontchaknow, too much like supermarket tabloids feeding people's obsession with movie stars and mediocre musicians rather than engaging with something real.

(Translation for possible excess of sarcasm:  It's not like limiting the acceptable manifestations of divinity to those dating to forms of pop culture that are not current actually changes anything.  There certainly have at times appeared to me to be far more people who would rather obsess over the "correct" color of altar drape than actually engage with cultus or living the values of their gods in the world and acting as their hands, much like there are tons of people who use a ritual invocation of the name of Martin Luther King, Jr. as proof of magical not-racism and don't actually do jack shit that's real.)

 
Yeah, this, all of it. Basically: Fluffies gonna fluff. Trying to gatekeep it out of paganism hasn't worked for the past 50 years; I don't see it suddenly starting to work now.  And, as usual, it's not being directed at actual superficiality; it's all about trying to find some easy obvious thing that can be used as an earmark of superficiality, so that the Real Pagans Tee Em can just reject the folks with the earmark out of hand, without expending time or effort.

I've seen so many different takes on, 'Thing X is readily subject to people doing it superficially, therefore people who do Thing X must be superficial,' over the years. Heck, that's why I favor TC's definition of 'fluffy bunny' as 'wilfully ignorant': assuming that the people who do thing X must be superficial is as wilfully ignorant as any other sort of bunny.  Rabbits who live in glass burrows.

Are there people whose use of pop culture stuff in their paganism is mostly just fansquee? Almost certainly. Does that make it true of everyone who makes use of pop culture stuff? Hell no - I don't even think it's necessarily true of everyone who fansquees; that could be what they do as a fan of that bit of pop culture, distinct from how they apply it to their paganism. I can't tell - and I maintain that it's impossible for anyone to tell - how superficial a given individual's paganism is, from only a superficial look at its superficial features.

In any case, their superficiality does me no harm, nor do I feel disrespected by it. Nor even embarrassed, because it's not about me.

Except where it might be: I am (among many other things) a Discordian. The broad brushes being wielded about the reprehensibility of 'pop culture paganism' are coming awfully close to me (and others) here. But if the brush-wielding gatekeepers decide to include Discordianism on their list of Insufficiently Serious And Therefore Wrong Ways To Be Pagan (won't be the first time, not by a long shot!), that won't be the fault of the (actually or purportedly) superficial pop culture pagans, it'll be the fault of the brush-wielding gatekeepers.

Sunflower
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

SunflowerP

  • Host
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Calgary AB
  • Posts: 8308
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 266
  • Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
    • View Profile
    • If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough
  • Religion: Eclectic religious Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: sie/hir/hirs/hirself
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2013, 11:26:45 pm »
Quote from: wadjet;109218
But again, my argument is - and I think it's the same argument other people are going for - is that the majority of fiction-worshipers aren't actually worshiping anything. Not that they "aren't worshiping anything" but that they "aren't worshiping anything".

 
To which I respond with a shorter version of my immediately-previous post: SO WHAT?

That might prove to be a problem for them. I fail to see why it should be a problem for me - or to understand why you and others have your undies in a bunch over it.

Sunflower
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4854
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 734
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2013, 11:38:37 pm »
Quote from: wadjet;109218
But again, my argument is - and I think it's the same argument other people are going for - is that the majority of fiction-worshipers aren't actually worshiping anything. Not that they "aren't worshiping anything" but that they "aren't worshiping anything".

 
I would observe that that's also the case for a huge number of people who profess to be concerned about "actual" gods.  Regardless of the religion that they claim.

Since several of the people I've seen posting on this were posting just a few weeks ago about how few people meet their standards of piety, I can't find "you people aren't actually worshipping" to be a meaningful category distinction here.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4854
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 734
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2013, 11:55:35 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;109219
And, as usual, it's not being directed at actual superficiality; it's all about trying to find some easy obvious thing that can be used as an earmark of superficiality, so that the Real Pagans Tee Em can just reject the folks with the earmark out of hand, without expending time or effort.

 
I just keep coming back to the guy who was working on a Thor comic.  He said that Odin and Thor came to him in a dream on a stormy, raven-filled night, each telling him a secret, and that he made them promises and considers that what about that project was successful depended on his keeping faith with them.  He's still an atheist, but his work in comics made him someone who would make and keep vows to Odin and Thor.

And one can go around and around about whether or not these are the "real" Odin and Thor (and that bit reminds me of my heathen friend who has been known to compare Marvel's portrayal of the Aesir to Wagner's; Wagner does not come out the better), but regardless of this: a guy who doesn't even believe in those gods kept his troth to them.

I certainly don't have the balls to tell the gods what forms they're allowed to take.  Fuck, the first thing Wepwawet said to me was quoting a bit of Babylon 5; he knew he couldn't fit in my head straight-up, but pulling the riff actually conveyed meaningful information.  I'm pretty sure that my pain in the ass reconstructionist sensibility isn't good enough to pass the pop culture purity test from that, and the closest thing I've got to a pop culture deity in my lineup is Lilith.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

wadjet

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 327
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
    • http://eirikra.blogspot.com/
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2013, 11:59:20 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;109219
Yeah, this, all of it. Basically: Fluffies gonna fluff. Trying to gatekeep it out of paganism hasn't worked for the past 50 years; I don't see it suddenly starting to work now.  And, as usual, it's not being directed at actual superficiality; it's all about trying to find some easy obvious thing that can be used as an earmark of superficiality, so that the Real Pagans Tee Em can just reject the folks with the earmark out of hand, without expending time or effort.

I almost said earlier, "oh I just saw The Craft and now I'm a gothic Witch".

But this times a million. It's the problem I've been dealing with for a while now - I just want to scream I AM THIRTY! I'M NOT NEW! I'M LEGIT! but because I have nothing tangible to show for it (not even a blog, heh) I get sniffed at.

Quote
Does that make it true of everyone who makes use of pop culture stuff? Hell no - I don't even think it's necessarily true of everyone who fansquees; that could be what they do as a fan of that bit of pop culture, distinct from how they apply it to their paganism.

There are a few bloggers at whom I start to frown at when the fansquee, who then turn around and write thoughtful intelligent posts. So it goes.

Quote from: SunflowerP;109220
To which I respond with a shorter version of my immediately-previous post: SO WHAT?

That might prove to be a problem for them. I fail to see why it should be a problem for me - or to understand why you and others have your undies in a bunch over it.

There are two problems on the "anti-" side of the argument at play here.

One is personal, not sure of quite the word for it, but it's something akin to indignation. It's the cause of all the rage and flipping out, and it's something I relate to, but you are correct in that it SHOULD be irrelevant to a sensible, logical argument. A lot of the bitterness from people is simply that they feel they've worked long and hard on their spirituality, and then up rolls some kid who claims they have all that stuff instantly. Yeah, I'd be jealous, and angry, if I've spent years on something just to have my results handed over to someone who did nothing - especially if the new person didn't take it seriously.

But again, this is a crap argument against the "legitimacy" of worshiping fictional gods. It's not an argument at all, it's ad hominem. It is, however, the reason people have bunched-undies, I think.

The second argument, which I think is more legit, is the same one folks have against fluffy bunnies - when you get a lot of them together, they get loud, and they start to direct the flow of things. It is just not true to say "my worship doesn't effect you", because it is not being kept personal, it's being brought into the public group circle.  

...And yes, we can use the gay marriage comparison here. On a personal level, a specific gay couple's marriage absolutely in no way effects the marriage of a specific straight couple's marriage, at all. Any complaint that it "offends the sensibilities" is personal vendetta and irrelevant. However, gay marriage does indeed effect the way the concept of marriage is perceived by a huge group of people (an entire nation) requiring a vast rethinking of definitions and social structures.

(...But, if you spent decades fighting for LGBT rights and then see other people getting married who are unappreciative of their privileges...? Back to sore feelings again.)

wadjet

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 327
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
    • http://eirikra.blogspot.com/
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2013, 12:06:08 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;109222
I would observe that that's also the case for a huge number of people who profess to be concerned about "actual" gods.  Regardless of the religion that they claim.
No arguments there. This same stuff happens in every religion. "I believe in Jesus!" Oh really, when was the last time you prayed? But I digress.

Quote
Since several of the people I've seen posting on this were posting just a few weeks ago about how few people meet their standards of piety, I can't find "you people aren't actually worshipping" to be a meaningful category distinction here.
Mm, I might be reading completely different material, but over the last few years I've seen dozens of blogs and groups pop up detailing the individual's Fantastic Daily Religious Experiences, only to disappear a few months later after their interest moved on to a different fandom. (Often preluded by disappointment that their "religion" didn't make them feel validated.) Not going to dig up examples to name names, obviously, but it's...frequent.

To some extent it boils down to semantics: what is the definition of "worship"? And is fansquee a legitimate expression of worship, or does the definition exclude it?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 12:06:33 am by wadjet »

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4854
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 734
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2013, 12:12:19 am »
Quote from: wadjet;109227
To some extent it boils down to semantics: what is the definition of "worship"? And is fansquee a legitimate expression of worship, or does the definition exclude it?

 
You're missing "Are people claiming that all this stuff is fansquee solely so they can dismiss it out of hand?", as Sunflower noted above.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Lokabrenna

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 829
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2013, 12:18:51 am »
Quote from: SunflowerP;109220
To which I respond with a shorter version of my immediately-previous post: SO WHAT?

That might prove to be a problem for them. I fail to see why it should be a problem for me - or to understand why you and others have your undies in a bunch over it.

Sunflower


and

Quote from: Darkhawk;109224

I certainly don't have the balls to tell the gods what forms they're allowed to take.  Fuck, the first thing Wepwawet said to me was quoting a bit of Babylon 5; he knew he couldn't fit in my head straight-up, but pulling the riff actually conveyed meaningful information.  I'm pretty sure that my pain in the ass reconstructionist sensibility isn't good enough to pass the pop culture purity test from that, and the closest thing I've got to a pop culture deity in my lineup is Lilith.


Is pretty much what I'm trying to get at.  
I believe that my deities are, well, real, but I'm also influenced by a crapton of fiction, and sometimes I see my deities in the guise of fictional gods and goddesses.

I don't really worship fictional characters as deities in their own right, but TBH, if someone else does, it's no sweat off my back. If that character has meaning for them, than that is what it is, and it is not my job to police people. I do think it is problematic when someone says something like "Marvel got it right and the Norse myths are wrong" or something equally stupid, but it seems like the majority of pop culture Pagans (involved in the debate, at least) aren't acting like that.

I choose to believe that my deities are bigger than all this drama, and if they're really that pissed about someone's Batman shrine, they will let that person know.

I also find it extremely ironic that one of the most vocal anti-PCP folks made a big deal out of honouring Columbia--essentially a pop culture deity with a couple centuries on Batman (and then there's, you know, that whole colonialism thing).

In short, really sick and tired of being called stupid because I dare to find something worthwhile amongst all the fiction I read (not on TC, though, but elsewhere).

I don't think I'm stupid.....all the time....

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4854
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 734
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2013, 12:21:50 am »
Adding this as an afterthought, too much content to do as an edit:

Quote from: wadjet;109227
Mm, I might be reading completely different material, but over the last few years I've seen dozens of blogs and groups pop up detailing the individual's Fantastic Daily Religious Experiences, only to disappear a few months later after their interest moved on to a different fandom. (Often preluded by disappointment that their "religion" didn't make them feel validated.) Not going to dig up examples to name names, obviously, but it's...frequent.

 
I'm sure it is.  It's not like they don't come here too.  But honestly, my puzzlement at this is: why bother reading these things in the first place?  Maybe I'm pissy and jaded or something but I can't imagine trawling the internet looking for New Pagan Blogs to read; if I start reading something it's because it's come to my attention as something that actually has worthwhile content on it because it's managed to integrate into the ecosystem, get quoted, leave worthwhile comments on other blogs, whatever else.

Even if people's Amazing Religious Experiences will eventually settle out to something long-term and substantial, the early stages of it are likely to be pretty boring, in the "Yes, you have a new boyfriend, but nobody else on the planet thinks he's as awesome as you do, would you shut up already?" kind of way.  :}

(And, again, it's not like this is a religious thing.  People pick up and drop topics of interest all the time, so saying that people do this involving religion is like making a point that people breathe oxygen.  For all that many of the devout would really like it to be different, religion isn't so special that it'll get treated under a different set of principles than everything else ever.)
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4854
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 734
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2013, 12:25:13 am »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;109230
I also find it extremely ironic that one of the most vocal anti-PCP folks made a big deal out of honouring Columbia--essentially a pop culture deity with a couple centuries on Batman (and then there's, you know, that whole colonialism thing).

 
I am SO GLAD that I'm not the only person who made this connection.  (Though I didn't see most of the Columbia discussions when they went around, I was aware of them.)

(Seriously with the whole colonialism/manifest destiny/genocide thing I would find someone with a Captain America shrine less problematic than an equally devout Columbia worshipper.)
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Lokabrenna

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 829
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2013, 12:30:54 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;109232
I am SO GLAD that I'm not the only person who made this connection.  (Though I didn't see most of the Columbia discussions when they went around, I was aware of them.)

(Seriously with the whole colonialism/manifest destiny/genocide thing I would find someone with a Captain America shrine less problematic than an equally devout Columbia worshipper.)


I'm just going to leave this link right here:

http://krasskova.weebly.com/1/category/columbia/1.html

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3168
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 90
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2013, 01:03:20 am »
Quote from: wadjet;109225
But this times a million. It's the problem I've been dealing with for a while now - I just want to scream I AM THIRTY! I'M NOT NEW! I'M LEGIT! but because I have nothing tangible to show for it (not even a blog, heh) I get sniffed at.


So... why not do something, if that bothers you?

Quote
A lot of the bitterness from people is simply that they feel they've worked long and hard on their spirituality, and then up rolls some kid who claims they have all that stuff instantly.


Which could happen without a fictional god being involved. Whereas some of us have been working "long and hard" on this, and maybe don't like being written off any more than you do.

Just sayin.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

wadjet

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 327
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
    • http://eirikra.blogspot.com/
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2013, 01:22:40 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;109229
You're missing "Are people claiming that all this stuff is fansquee solely so they can dismiss it out of hand?", as Sunflower noted above.

I'd word it differently, but yes, there is unnecessary dismissal on all sides that is more damaging to the community than any supposedly "deviant" worship styles.
 
Quote from: Lokabrenna;109230
I believe that my deities are, well, real, but I'm also influenced by a crapton of fiction, and sometimes I see my deities in the guise of fictional gods and goddesses.
I don't really worship fictional characters as deities in their own right, but TBH, if someone else does, it's no sweat off my back.

Totally reasonable. Why wouldn't a person interpret the Gods through their personal filter of culture and life?

My biggest complaint is when "fluffy bunnies" see your pop-versions and take them at face-value -- which is not at all your fault or your problem. It's the same thing as the abuse of the word "godphone", which was just some lighthearted self-deprecating term that got interpreted as nearly literal by uninformed folks. Or the same as thinking Real Witches always need to wear black or whatever. It's just eye-rolling.

Quote
I do think it is problematic when someone says something like "Marvel got it right and the Norse myths are wrong" or something equally stupid, but it seems like the majority of pop culture Pagans (involved in the debate, at least) aren't acting like that.

I would agree that most of the folks involved in the debate are sensible and intelligent folks who are making great response. But I would also argue that they aren't the ones that are the "issue" in the first place. (That goes back to the "well I didn't mean YOU" problematic defense, but I do think it is relevant. I know that some of the anti-PCP folks are taking a stubborn hardline FAKE GODS ARE FAKE argument, which is unhelpful.)

....which really just says that all of it is the same old defensiveness that has plagued Neo-Pagans and Wiccans and other related groups since their conception: the desperate need to "prove" the legitimacy of one's counter-culture religion.


Quote from: Darkhawk;109231
But honestly, my puzzlement at this is: why bother reading these things in the first place?  Maybe I'm pissy and jaded or something but I can't imagine trawling the internet looking for New Pagan Blogs to read;

Oh lordy, I hope I don't sound like I go looking for it! No, it just comes scrolling past on my Facebook or Tumblr, because I have friend with related interests, and I never delve to deeply - the only reason I'm involved with this (belated) convo is because a friend-of-a-friend brought up a tangential argument semi-related to this whole drama, and I said "Wow, I must be seriously missing the background on this debate."


I hope nobody is taking my curmugeonly attitude as personal butthurt (can I say that word?). I couldn't care less what people do with their Gods, their religions, or their time. It's really just eyerolling to me...and interesting to discuss with you guys. (Why can't everyone else have differing opinions without fallout??)

wadjet

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 327
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
    • http://eirikra.blogspot.com/
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2013, 01:31:32 am »
Quote from: Jack;109240
So... why not do something, if that bothers you?
That's an extremely personal question and slightly rude, besides being irrelevant to the topic. Questioning my accomplishments, or pointing out my emotional vulnerabilities, seriously?

But I'll answer anyway: First, I said "tangible", meaning an initiation or a group or a piece of work or something I can show to other people - that doesn't mean I don't have personal and satisfying "evidence" of my spirituality. Second, I am not bothered by this lack of tangibility - I am bothered by other people's lack of acceptance and invalidation.

Quote
Quote
A lot of the bitterness from people is simply that they feel they've worked long and hard on their spirituality, and then up rolls some kid who claims they have all that stuff instantly.
Which could happen without a fictional god being involved. Whereas some of us have been working "long and hard" on this, and maybe don't like being written off any more than you do.
I never said this could only happen when a fictional god was involved - in fact I gave specific examples. I was stating where the bitterness was coming from, since clearly many of us can relate to it, and I went on to say that it WASN'T a legitimate argument against fictional deities. So I don't know who is writing off who, here.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 01:31:45 am by wadjet »

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
2 Replies
2354 Views
Last post May 24, 2013, 09:05:37 pm
by Jujulinda
19 Replies
3049 Views
Last post February 17, 2014, 04:48:04 am
by Freesia
25 Replies
2862 Views
Last post March 04, 2015, 03:41:16 am
by EJay
86 Replies
9499 Views
Last post April 22, 2017, 02:58:11 pm
by Pusheen
14 Replies
1073 Views
Last post August 11, 2019, 08:19:58 pm
by Donal2018

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 55
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 0

There aren't any users online.

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall