collapse

Author Topic: Pop Culture Paganism  (Read 11946 times)

Lokabrenna

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 829
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2013, 07:08:03 pm »
Quote from: Jack;109186
I'm curious about the second half of this. In what way is one person's practice disrespectful to another? If there's cultural appropriation going on, that's one thing, but if I'm over here working with totally different deities than yours, I'm not sure how it's disrespectful to you.

 
Not gonna' lie, this line of reasoning sounds awfully familiar....

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3168
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 90
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2013, 07:18:03 pm »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;109194
Not gonna' lie, this line of reasoning sounds awfully familiar....

 
Are you referring to "OMGLOKIPANIC" coming from Heathens or something else? I've had a really busy day at work, so I'm not sure I follow. ;)
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Lokabrenna

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 829
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2013, 07:29:54 pm »
Quote from: Jack;109195
Are you referring to "OMGLOKIPANIC" coming from Heathens or something else? I've had a really busy day at work, so I'm not sure I follow. ;)


Well, there's that, but I was thinking of anti-marriage equality arguments, (ie. "How does my getting same-sex married affect your marriage?") not that anyone here is that way, I'm just saying, sounds familiar.

Snowdrop

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Posts: 416
  • Country: 00
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2013, 07:43:54 pm »
Quote from: Jack;109186
I'm curious about the second half of this. In what way is one person's practice disrespectful to another? If there's cultural appropriation going on, that's one thing, but if I'm over here working with totally different deities than yours, I'm not sure how it's disrespectful to you.

 
I think Wadjet was referencing the fandom-like attitude (regardless of the deities being worshiped) rather than the worship of "fictional gods" per se.  Which, basically, is something I would agree with.  If you worship some random entity you made up one day, and you do it with sincerity, and it inspires you to develop a genuine spirituality?  More power to you.  If you worship a god like Thor, Who's considered "real" by a ton of people, and then go and treat the whole thing like a hobby or a game?  You're being disrespectful to everyone involved.  

(For clarity: what I mean when I say fandom-like attitudes is stuff like the troll in this thread.  It's rude and irritating both to your gods and to other people when you try to communicate with them about it.)

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4805
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 683
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2013, 07:45:49 pm »
Quote from: wadjet;109177
I personally am disgusted by the fandom attitude towards paganism in recent years (some of it is personal bitterness, I admit). Much of it is, if you'll pardon the expression, a lot of circle-jerking and/or escapism. It turns spirituality into a hobby, and it is disrespectful to both the gods and the individuals who are practicing genuinely.

 
Yeah, I have a pet peeve about people whose engagement with paganism is all about whether or not their favorite god likes them back or what brand of chocolate they prefer.  The whole "How do you find a patron god" thing is so overplayed, dontchaknow, too much like supermarket tabloids feeding people's obsession with movie stars and mediocre musicians rather than engaging with something real.

(Translation for possible excess of sarcasm:  It's not like limiting the acceptable manifestations of divinity to those dating to forms of pop culture that are not current actually changes anything.  There certainly have at times appeared to me to be far more people who would rather obsess over the "correct" color of altar drape than actually engage with cultus or living the values of their gods in the world and acting as their hands, much like there are tons of people who use a ritual invocation of the name of Martin Luther King, Jr. as proof of magical not-racism and don't actually do jack shit that's real.)
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

wadjet

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 327
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
    • http://eirikra.blogspot.com/
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2013, 08:18:14 pm »
Quote from: Jack;109186
I keep seeing this come up as a criticism of people working with fictional deities/fictional heroes/egregores/etc/ad nauseum, but that seems like a totally different problem to me. One is a question of praxis, the other of theology.

I disagree in this case that praxis and theology differ. Like I said, it is not so much that I am critical that a person might worship "fictional" dieties - I am critical that what these people are doing is NOT worship, but is being touted as such.

Quote
I'm curious about the second half of this. In what way is one person's practice disrespectful to another? If there's cultural appropriation going on, that's one thing, but if I'm over here working with totally different deities than yours, I'm not sure how it's disrespectful to you.

This goes back to the concept of individual-versus-group practice. It of course doesn't matter how you as an individual practice. But if you declare yourself part of and interact with a group - say, "polytheist" or "heathen" or "pagan" groups - then you are now practicing as a group and not an individual. Especially if you are writing publicly about it.


Quote from: Snowdrop;109198
I think Wadjet was referencing the fandom-like attitude (regardless of the deities being worshiped) rather than the worship of "fictional gods" per se.  Which, basically, is something I would agree with.  If you worship some random entity you made up one day, and you do it with sincerity, and it inspires you to develop a genuine spirituality?  More power to you.  If you worship a god like Thor, Who's considered "real" by a ton of people, and then go and treat the whole thing like a hobby or a game?  You're being disrespectful to everyone involved.

 Yes, exactly, this this addition: even if your fictional deity is someone nobody else is worshiping, say your own made-up character, if you claim to religiously "worship" them when all you do is fandomly obsess all day, ESPECIALLY if you declare yourself a part of a larger pagan group, you are disrespectful to people who put deep emotion and hard work into their paganism. Unintentionally disrespectful, true, but it almost IS like cultural appropriation in some ways.

Quote from: Darkhawk;109199
Yeah, I have a pet peeve about people whose engagement with paganism is all about whether or not their favorite god likes them back or what brand of chocolate they prefer.  )

Thank you for the mental image of someone invoking MLK to prove they aren't racist. I will laugh about that for the rest of the day.


Anyway, this whole topic touches on one of my pet-peeve subjects that I have a hard time discussing without offending anyone: the social ineptitude that is so common in Paganism, especially online. I...I've thought about bringing it up as a topic in the past, but I'm not sure I can say what I want to say without massive levels of drama. (I too suffer some levels of social ineptitude, heh. Maybe some day.)

Snowdrop

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Posts: 416
  • Country: 00
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2013, 08:30:49 pm »
Quote from: wadjet;109202
Anyway, this whole topic touches on one of my pet-peeve subjects that I have a hard time discussing without offending anyone: the social ineptitude that is so common in Paganism, especially online. I...I've thought about bringing it up as a topic in the past, but I'm not sure I can say what I want to say without massive levels of drama. (I too suffer some levels of social ineptitude, heh. Maybe some day.)


Heh.  I think that it's a pretty relevant topic, really.  But I agree that it would be difficult to start a thread about.  I mean, you can't really say, "How can we improve social ineptitude?" without giving examples of what you mean by that, but unless you could anonymize your examples well while still giving enough detail, that also has a lot of potential for awkwardness.

wadjet

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 327
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
    • http://eirikra.blogspot.com/
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2013, 08:36:53 pm »
Quote from: Snowdrop;109203
Heh.  I think that it's a pretty relevant topic, really.  But I agree that it would be difficult to start a thread about.  I mean, you can't really say, "How can we improve social ineptitude?" without giving examples of what you mean by that, but unless you could anonymize your examples well while still giving enough detail, that also has a lot of potential for awkwardness.
I'm trying again to collect my thoughts to start a new thread...but I might have to make it a longer essay on a personal site, and link to it, or something.

(Also this thread is becoming very much I THINK YOU KNOW WHAT I THINK YOU KNOW.)
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 08:37:10 pm by wadjet »

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4805
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 683
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2013, 08:56:15 pm »
Quote from: wadjet;109202
Thank you for the mental image of someone invoking MLK to prove they aren't racist. I will laugh about that for the rest of the day.

 
It would be a lot funnier if I didn't see it all the fucking goddamn time.  It's the version of "I have a black friend, so I can't be racist" that doesn't actually require having an actual black friend.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Lokabrenna

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 829
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2013, 09:03:49 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;109207
It would be a lot funnier if I didn't see it all the fucking goddamn time.  It's the version of "I have a black friend, so I can't be racist" that doesn't actually require having an actual black friend.


I don't have any black friends, outside of online.
By that logic, I must be the most racist racist who ever was racist.

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4805
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 683
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2013, 09:19:47 pm »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;109208
I don't have any black friends, outside of online.
By that logic, I must be the most racist racist who ever was racist.

 
... are you not familiar with the "I have a FITB friend, so I can't be FITB-ist?" construction, or am I misreading your response?

Generally it gets invoked by someone who has just said something awful and who wishes to use their minority-group buddy as a human shield against social consequences for same.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Rhyshadow

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 717
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2013, 09:29:15 pm »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;109208
I don't have any black friends, outside of online.
By that logic, I must be the most racist racist who ever was racist.

 
I know you enough here and other places to cry "NO" to that ;)

Myself, I've actually been approached by people who think that because I'm a ginger practicing a mostly Irish-Gaelic path, that I MUST not like black people

Then I tell them about my foster brother, Michael and show them the pic of me with two of the three people I went to the Altan concert with last year - reason I'm smiling in this - I'm between two lovely women :dwink:


SunflowerP

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Calgary AB
  • Posts: 8119
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 219
  • Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
    • View Profile
    • If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough
  • Religion: Eclectic religious Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: sie/hir/hirs/hirself
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2013, 10:04:49 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;109209
... are you not familiar with the "I have a FITB friend, so I can't be FITB-ist?" construction, or am I misreading your response?

 
I read Lokabrenna's post to be snarking at the (pseudo) logic of 'I have a black friend, therefore I can't be racist.'

Sunflower
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

Lokabrenna

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 829
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2013, 10:22:25 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;109214
I read Lokabrenna's post to be snarking at the (pseudo) logic of 'I have a black friend, therefore I can't be racist.'

Sunflower


This is exactly it.

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4805
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 683
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: Pop Culture Paganism
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2013, 10:42:38 pm »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;109215
This is exactly it.

 
No worries; I'm clearly not hitting on all cylinders today.  Thanks for the clarification.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
2 Replies
2287 Views
Last post May 24, 2013, 09:05:37 pm
by Jujulinda
19 Replies
2964 Views
Last post February 17, 2014, 04:48:04 am
by Freesia
25 Replies
2762 Views
Last post March 04, 2015, 03:41:16 am
by EJay
86 Replies
9291 Views
Last post April 22, 2017, 02:58:11 pm
by Pusheen
14 Replies
425 Views
Last post August 11, 2019, 08:19:58 pm
by Donal2018

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 26
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 2
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Co-Hosts:
LyricFox & Randall

Senior Staff:
Darkhawk

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Sunflower

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Board Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, HarpingHawke, Jenett, Morag, rocquelaire, Sefiru

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Reserve Staff:
Aisling

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Cauldron Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]

Site Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]
Webmaster:
Randall