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Author Topic: Other than European  (Read 12211 times)

Atehequa

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Re: Other than European
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2014, 10:40:20 pm »
Quote from: Valentine;135237
That sort of behavior is very much frowned upon here.


Greetings to you and my thanks for informing me of that.
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mlr52

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Re: Other than European
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2014, 11:09:56 pm »
Quote from: Atehequa;135233
Apparently not so easily as far as you are concerned.


A request for clarity means what was stated was not understood, as stated.

Quote

Let's try it again this way -

Cauldron, a Pagan Forum.
Atehequa, a Pagan

Pagan is an umberlla term, and not one set of beliefs, non-beliefs, or creed. Do all Christians think, believe or say the same things ?
Do all Muslims? Is there any one religion where all think, believe or say the same and mean it?

I am a Unitarian Universalist (UU) ask two UU's the same question you can receive one, two, three, or more answers, which may or may not agree.

Here at TC there are many different beleifs, some non-believers, and those whose beliefs adapt as their understanding expands.

Quote

Private social clubs, either non-acceptance or if accepted having to know one's place regarding to particular rank and file.

Cult, cult-like mindset which does not condone individualism or disagreement.

Private clubs are just that, private.  I belong to clubs where a person has to be invited to join, ones rank or postion is based ones knowdledge or job.  Then there are oaths taken not to share information to those not at that level, or ding that job.

When you grow tired of expaining to newcomers the same thing (say after 100 times), it may get shortened without the explaination.  

Consider the military they teach pepole to march, without explaing why.  At some point the understanding of why becomes clear.

When I was a child my mother put my hand on a hot steam pipe, she just said hot.  It was many years before I understood when it was safe to touch the pipe, had she just said don't touch, I would have touched.  


Quote
True when spoken words become sounds, but when written there are none which kicks in imagination. Therefore impossible to determine if the writer is shaken, angry, happy or as calm as a large rock long set in hard clay.

I read in images, and the useage of words tells a lot of the intent behind them by the images they produce.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 11:54:57 pm by SunflowerP »
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Re: Other than European
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2014, 12:31:35 am »
Quote from: mlr52;135252
Pagan is an umberlla term, and not one set of beliefs, non-beliefs, or creed. Do all Christians think, believe or say the same things ?
Do all Muslims? Is there any one religion where all think, believe or say the same and mean it?

I am a Unitarian Universalist (UU) ask two UU's the same question you can receive one, two, three, or more answers, which may or may not agree.

Here at TC there are many different beleifs, some non-believers, and those whose beliefs adapt as their understanding expands.

 
Atehequa basically said, in the bit you quoted that the above was a response to, 'This is a Pagan forum, and I am a Pagan' - nothing there that indicates he thinks paganism is a creedal or religious monolith. Nor in the rest of his posts in this thread - indeed, his OP indicates that he is very well aware that paganism is not a single religion.

So I'm really failing to understand why you thought a primer on the topic was called-for.

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mlr52

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Re: Other than European
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2014, 03:51:09 am »
Quote from: SunflowerP;135256
Atehequa basically said, in the bit you quoted that the above was a response to, 'This is a Pagan forum, and I am a Pagan' - nothing there that indicates he thinks paganism is a creedal or religious monolith. Nor in the rest of his posts in this thread - indeed, his OP indicates that he is very well aware that paganism is not a single religion.

So I'm really failing to understand why you thought a primer on the topic was called-for.

Sunflower

 
Quote from: Atehequa;135233
Apparently not so easily as far as you are concerned.

Let's try it again this way -


 
There was a failure of understanding, so I dropped to a basic level, to get a better understanding.
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Faemon

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Re: Other than European
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2014, 04:27:33 am »
Quote from: Atehequa;135186
I was wondering if the primitive spiritual beliefs of non-European people around the globe are considered 'Pagan' by those who practice forms of 'Paganism' that are European in origin?

I'm asking this because of often getting the cold shoulder by such Pagans on line as well as the few festivals I've attended which has me wondering if this behavior is prompted by a difference in beliefs or perhaps in skin color?

Probably difference in beliefs. While pagan communities aren't insular in the sense of non-European pagans aren't allowed to join in on the adjective, the word is an English one therefore a European one therefore you've got a starter sample space.

And that means that if I come in, for example, and go, "Jinja Shinto, anypagan?" Then the response is usually going to be, "Cool, welcome, welcome...Don't know much about that, so I'm not gonna presume to talk about it. Good luck!"

Nobody's freezing me out, but I'm left cold. There's just so much more available information and therefore enthusiasm for European pagan religions. There's no aversion to non-European pagan reconstructionism, there's just little to no momentum. (That I've seen.) (Except for maybe the Kemetics, and more power to y'all for it.)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 04:30:59 am by Faemon »
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Atehequa

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Re: Other than European
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2014, 04:40:44 am »
Quote from: Valentine;135235
I mean, there are actually a bunch of us here of indigenous descent and in traditions and practices of indigenous origin, and a bunch of us coming from non-European perspectives, and we're pretty active in the forum.  We tend not to talk about ourselves using words like "primitive" and "savage," so you might have missed it.  You didn't come in asking where we were or if we were here; you showed up on this forum and opened your participation by stating that we weren't here, that it was just you, and that you were the only one interested in discussing indigenous traditions--even while those discussions were going on.  And then you suggested that the reason that nobody was quick enough for your standards to join a conversation you started was race--when until you said so, nobody even knew you were Native.  (You came in talking about indigenous American stuff, but for all any of us knew, you were one of those plastic shamans that bugs you and bugs me and bugs a lot of us.)

I think part of the confusion was honestly that first post.  It looked a lot like "Where the Indians at?  Why isn't anyone talking about them?" and since nobody was aware you were one yourself, it looked like any number of similar posts from plastic-shaman types wanting some mystical Indian to come teach them Ancient Wisdom.  Stephy, having already dealt with a lot of that nonsense, responded by noting that sometimes Native people are turned away by racism, and sometimes those conversations are just happening where white people aren't privy to them, and you responded by condescending to her, assuming she was white, and lamenting that nobody was paying attention to you.

This is actually a pretty great community, and there are a lot of us here having the kinds of conversations you're asking about, quite a few of us of color, and quite a few of us coming from non-European traditions.  It's not perfect, and there are some race issues, but it's better at the Cauldron than any other online pagan group I've participated in.  If you listened to other people, you might be reassured.

 
A shrill cry can carry above all the cawing and cooing. Perhaps necessary especially when one wants to be heard.

I deem neither primitive or savage to be derogatory terms.
Muckhswe kee sishet tepe?

Atehequa

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Re: Other than European
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2014, 04:45:34 am »
Quote from: mlr52;135269
There was a failure of understanding, so I dropped to a basic level, to get a better understanding.


Ahhh, thanks for putting it in a remedial way just for my benefit.
Muckhswe kee sishet tepe?

Chabas

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Re: Other than European
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2014, 04:55:06 am »
Quote from: Atehequa;135186
I was wondering if the primitive spiritual beliefs of non-European people around the globe are considered 'Pagan' by those who practice forms of 'Paganism' that are European in origin?

I'm asking this because of often getting the cold shoulder by such Pagans on line as well as the few festivals I've attended which has me wondering if this behavior is prompted by a difference in beliefs or perhaps in skin color?

 
I suspect it may be more due to differences in the existence of other communities. You seem to be talking in large part about Native American traditions, which have a very different position than a lot of the European Pagan traditions from a historical perspective. I know that I, as a white European outsider, would certainly be interested in the views of people from a NA background, and wouldn't attempt to silence them, but neither would I presume the right to learn about a religion that has, in recent history, been driven underground *by people like me*, and is still being treated quite disrespectfully by our culture at large.

I suppose it's not unlike discussing personal private matters - I don't mind talking about, say, someone's medical history in a fitting context, but out of respect for people's privacy, *I* am unlikely to bring it up without very clear indication that that is ok. When it comes to NA religions, there's been sufficient disrespect of that privacy so I'm unwilling to violate it. It's no attempt to freeze anyone out - it's an attempt to respect boundaries. If you do want to share and be involved in discussions from that perspective, then be welcome!

--Chabas

NanLT

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Re: Other than European
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2014, 10:53:03 am »
Quote from: Atehequa;135200
.... Yet upon entering such realms and then attempting to be part of these communities, I'm usually met with people who rather than converse in a civil manner would rather resort to bumping up a two year old thread than engage in conversation with one who is not the standard European in origin Pagan. Upon those Pagan forums that do have a section regarding America's indigenous spirituality, I often find myself being 'schooled' on how to be a "Native American" by a white person who has bought into the sparkly new age 'three wolf moon' misconception and deems thousands of years of a spiritual sense of being, practices and oral traditions as balderdash.


I can understand where such reactions could breed feelings of anger, and even resentment.

I've had conversations and such in the past from people who are not of European ancestry who have dealt with being told, "Oh, you can't be Pagan because you're Native America, because you're Black African, because you're Afro-Caribbean, because you're Indian, Chinese, Asian."

Complete and utter nonsense as far as I am concerned. Going both direction. Where I see a problem coming in to play is when someone wants to take on the mantle of a particular religious belief while discounting or ignoring the cultural background that created those beliefs.

I have a good friend (Hindu) who told his father (a Hindu Priest) that I am really Hindu, I was just born into a white American family. I disagree, because being Hindu is much more than a religion it is an entire cultural way of thinking and being. On the other hand, Kali at one time was a Goddess I worked with quite a bit within my work as a critical care nurse. I have a close working knowledge of Her, but I would never go so far as to claim it gives me an insider understanding of Hinduism as a whole.

At another end of the world, I have a friend back in America who is a Lakota pipe bearer. He also happens to be a white man. I won't go in to the entire story of how that came to be, but he didn't enter into this role lightly, and he did it with the support of the local Lakota tribe. He wrote a book about his experiences and what led him to this path he now follows called "White Man Red Road Five Colors"

Quote
I was wondering if the primitive spiritual beliefs of non-European people around the globe are considered 'Pagan' by those who practice forms of 'Paganism' that are European in origin?


My personal policy is to not give a name to any person's religion or spiritual practice unless they have told me what it is. If you tell me that you are Pagan, then you're Pagan. If you tell me you're XYZ, then you're XYZ.

Atehequa

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Re: Other than European
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2014, 06:53:22 pm »
Quote from: Valentine;135235
I mean, there are actually a bunch of us here of indigenous descent and in traditions and practices of indigenous origin, and a bunch of us coming from non-European perspectives, and we're pretty active in the forum.  We tend not to talk about ourselves using words like "primitive" and "savage," so you might have missed it.  You didn't come in asking where we were or if we were here; you showed up on this forum and opened your participation by stating that we weren't here, that it was just you, and that you were the only one interested in discussing indigenous traditions--even while those discussions were going on.  And then you suggested that the reason that nobody was quick enough for your standards to join a conversation you started was race--when until you said so, nobody even knew you were Native.  (You came in talking about indigenous American stuff, but for all any of us knew, you were one of those plastic shamans that bugs you and bugs me and bugs a lot of us.)

I think part of the confusion was honestly that first post.  It looked a lot like "Where the Indians at?  Why isn't anyone talking about them?" and since nobody was aware you were one yourself, it looked like any number of similar posts from plastic-shaman types wanting some mystical Indian to come teach them Ancient Wisdom.  Stephy, having already dealt with a lot of that nonsense, responded by noting that sometimes Native people are turned away by racism, and sometimes those conversations are just happening where white people aren't privy to them, and you responded by condescending to her, assuming she was white, and lamenting that nobody was paying attention to you.

This is actually a pretty great community, and there are a lot of us here having the kinds of conversations you're asking about, quite a few of us of color, and quite a few of us coming from non-European traditions.  It's not perfect, and there are some race issues, but it's better at the Cauldron than any other online pagan group I've participated in.  If you listened to other people, you might be reassured.


What I could never fathom are the plastic medicine people who have all the trappings/props one would expect,, feather adornments, silver-coral-turquoise jewelry, sweat lodges, drums, flutes, KAO campground hiking trails for vision quests, dream catchers, rattles, sweet grass, Soundscapes CDs, etc. Very deep into the 'Native American Spirituality' thing, but would flip slam out on an NDN if he or she would touch upon hunting, consuming game, hide preparation and hunting magic, a very important part of our being. Some even got down on us for fishing. How do they think we fashion regalia?

Damn odd.

Then there are the ones with fantastic tales of being adopted by elders or spiritual leaders, taught sacred knowledge and in some cases making fabulous fortunes selling this concocted snake oil. Even more weird, rude, but somewhat humorous are those who claim to channel our living and ancestors, thus attaining sacred knowledge. I once conversed with a guy from Germany who told me he was adopted into the Cherokee tribe by elders he channeled. I could not completely doubt his claims, but had assumptions of weasel scat. I attempted to be somewhat cordial at this particular community, but my Chickahominy-Mattaponi wife, a real fireball, especially in regards to those who make a mockery of people's ancestors, spiritual beliefs and culture lit right into what we call in this neck of the woods, 'Moon Bugs' We both got banned over what started as our posting of a photo of fish we caught with a brief description of before and after hunting/fishing ceremonies.

"Oh how can you eat anything with two eyes?"

Same way one eats a potato with 5 eyes.

Game? We usually discard the head along with the eyes, but leave em on pan fried trout. Deer brains are used to make hide tanning solution.
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Re: Other than European
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2014, 07:03:06 pm »
Quote from: Atehequa;135360
"Oh how can you eat anything with two eyes?"


With great relish, and sometimes a fork.

My ancestors did not claw their way to the top of the food chain so I could just eat veggies.

stephyjh

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Other than European
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2014, 07:06:23 pm »
Quote from: Atehequa;135360
What I could never fathom are the plastic medicine people who have all the trappings/props one would expect,, feather adornments, silver-coral-turquoise jewelry, sweat lodges, drums, flutes, KAO campground hiking trails for vision quests, dream catchers, rattles, sweet grass, Soundscapes CDs, etc. Very deep into the 'Native American Spirituality' thing, but would flip slam out on an NDN if he or she would touch upon hunting, consuming game, hide preparation and hunting magic, a very important part of our being. Some even got down on us for fishing. How do they think we fashion regalia?

Damn odd.

Then there are the ones with fantastic tales of being adopted by elders or spiritual leaders, taught sacred knowledge and in some cases making fabulous fortunes selling this concocted snake oil. Even more weird, rude, but somewhat humorous are those who claim to channel our living and ancestors, thus attaining sacred knowledge. I once conversed with a guy from Germany who told me he was adopted into the Cherokee tribe by elders he channeled. I could not completely doubt his claims, but had assumptions of weasel scat. I attempted to be somewhat cordial at this particular community, but my Chickahominy-Mattaponi wife, a real fireball, especially in regards to those who make a mockery of people's ancestors, spiritual beliefs and culture lit right into what we call in this neck of the woods, 'Moon Bugs' We both got banned over what started as our posting of a photo of fish we caught with a brief description of before and after hunting/fishing ceremonies.

"Oh how can you eat anything with two eyes?"

Same way one eats a potato with 5 eyes.

Game? We usually discard the head along with the eyes, but leave em on pan fried trout. Deer brains are used to make hide tanning solution.

Dad and I had crazy work schedules this past season, so we didn't get to do the he-hunts-I-butcher thing like we've done every year since I was twelve. Damn, I miss my country style venison in gravy with biscuits. Best winter supper EVER. And we've got friends who use the hides and bones.  He tried taking me hunting once, but I'm too loud.
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HeartShadow

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Re: Other than European
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2014, 07:42:56 am »
Quote from: Atehequa;135360


 
wait .. channeling the LIVING?

bwuh?

and here I thought I'd heard everything on the "crazy pagan crap" list.  damn.

also, I think you're supposed to get your ceremonial regalia from Walmart.  *nodnod* TOTALLY more humane than hunting .... wait .....

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Re: Other than European
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2014, 07:54:26 am »
Quote from: triple_entendre;135270
Nobody's freezing me out, but I'm left cold. There's just so
much more available information and therefore enthusiasm for European pagan religions. There's no aversion to non-European pagan reconstructionism, there's just little to no momentum. (That I've seen.) (Except for maybe the Kemetics, and more power to y'all for it.)

And unfortunately, there's really no way it could be otherwise. People can only talk intelligently about that which they have some knowledge about on a forum like this. If someone comes in and says "Jinja Shinto, anypagan?", they'll be welcome here, but chances are no one else knows enough about Jinja Shinto to talk about it much beyond "tell me about it". :(
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Nyktipolos

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Re: Other than European
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2014, 04:57:24 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;135423
wait .. channeling the LIVING?

bwuh?

and here I thought I'd heard everything on the "crazy pagan crap" list.  damn.

also, I think you're supposed to get your ceremonial regalia from Walmart.  *nodnod* TOTALLY more humane than hunting .... wait .....

 
It's actually incredibly common for those wanting to appropriate Native cultures and spirituality to claim they "channeled" elders from different tribes and thus "gained" the knowledge. It's a huge red flag if anyone is ever investigating people and wanting to know they are legit. It's just a very cowardly way to appropriate something without actually having to face real legit NDN people.

Another red flag? Never naming the band or the names of these supposed elders. It's another form of erasure that plays into romanticization of Native people that allows them to also continue their appropriation, because now people can't do proper background research and thus get them called out for their lying.

In my field, when people are thanking their elders of their roles in their lives? They ALWAYS name them. Naming is hugely important; it's about reclamation of our lives and our histories, something that colonizers tried to take from us repeatedly. It's how we show how properly important our elders are in our lives. You don't hide that.
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