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Author Topic: Other than European  (Read 12665 times)

Atehequa

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Other than European
« on: January 05, 2014, 03:31:52 pm »
I was wondering if the primitive spiritual beliefs of non-European people around the globe are considered 'Pagan' by those who practice forms of 'Paganism' that are European in origin?

I'm asking this because of often getting the cold shoulder by such Pagans on line as well as the few festivals I've attended which has me wondering if this behavior is prompted by a difference in beliefs or perhaps in skin color?
Muckhswe kee sishet tepe?

HeartShadow

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Re: Other than European
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2014, 04:48:11 pm »
Quote from: Atehequa;135186
I was wondering if the primitive spiritual beliefs of non-European people around the globe are considered 'Pagan' by those who practice forms of 'Paganism' that are European in origin?

I'm asking this because of often getting the cold shoulder by such Pagans on line as well as the few festivals I've attended which has me wondering if this behavior is prompted by a difference in beliefs or perhaps in skin color?

 
Depends on who you ask.  The Cauldron says that the biggest distinction is self-identifies - so a Hindu would probably not be considered pagan, because they do not call themselves such.  Many native tribes reject the label because it was applied pejoratively against them, so again, try to not use it if they don't.

That said, yes, there's a lot of undercover racism in pagan circles, and a lot of "but it's not REALLY racism because" bullshit smeared all over it.  It's a messy messy problem and it's really hard to even dig into.

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Re: Other than European
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2014, 05:57:28 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;135193
Depends on who you ask.  The Cauldron says that the biggest distinction is self-identifies - so a Hindu would probably not be considered pagan, because they do not call themselves such.  Many native tribes reject the label because it was applied pejoratively against them, so again, try to not use it if they don't.

That said, yes, there's a lot of undercover racism in pagan circles, and a lot of "but it's not REALLY racism because" bullshit smeared all over it.  It's a messy messy problem and it's really hard to even dig into.

 
What Shad said. I've encountered a lot of people who do not use TC's definition who lump indigenous beliefs under the pagan umbrella without their consent, and then seem to imply it gives them to the right to use our beliefs for their own usage. To be honest, I don't know a single Native person in my life who identifies their traditions as "pagan"; there is generally something else going on in their own life outside of their indigenous traditions when they start using pagan as an identifier (like I do).
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Atehequa

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Re: Other than European
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2014, 06:16:03 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;135193
Depends on who you ask.  The Cauldron says that the biggest distinction is self-identifies - so a Hindu would probably not be considered pagan, because they do not call themselves such.  Many native tribes reject the label because it was applied pejoratively against them, so again, try to not use it if they don't.

That said, yes, there's a lot of undercover racism in pagan circles, and a lot of "but it's not REALLY racism because" bullshit smeared all over it.  It's a messy messy problem and it's really hard to even dig into.

 
Greetings and my thanks for your reply

Always having an interest of the world's indigenous cultures and spiritual beliefs(including European) is what usually brings me to these Pagan online communities, but also there's a sense of kinship or even solidarity with others who call themselves Pagans which in my opinion means those of a spirituality other than the big 3 Monotheistic Abrahamic religions as well as the new age stew pot of piping hot and blended paths. Yet upon entering such realms and then attempting to be part of these communities, I'm usually met with people who rather than converse in a civil manner would rather resort to bumping up a two year old thread than engage in conversation with one who is not the standard European in origin Pagan. Upon those Pagan forums that do have a section regarding America's indigenous spirituality, I often find myself being 'schooled' on how to be a "Native American" by a white person who has bought into the sparkly new age 'three wolf moon' misconception and deems thousands of years of a spiritual sense of being, practices and oral traditions as balderdash. There was someone here that mentioned on another thread here that we NDNs don't speak of our spiritual beliefs openly to strangers. Not wholly true, Some of us discuss what we feel comfortable with.Not breaking tradition in regards to what some of us feel should be private is important and should never be subject to the standard - "Why be rude and not share. No one owns spirituality" line which I've experienced before. Then there's the band together and either run the traditional NDNs off or ban them that to me seems reminiscent of the old days when white European Christians would muster and chase us off or worse, shoot us down for disagreeing or being outspoken. Perhaps attempting to interact with such Pagans is a folly on my part, or maybe it has prompted me to just count some coup.  

Truly, I hate to think there is religious or racial bias upon and near these Pagan paths that are European in origin when an NDN or any other non-European Pagan person arrives to interact or make friends of sorts, but others I know, relations and friends always run into the same snags when attempting to do so. Our cultures and spiritual beliefs are not so savagely foreign to warrant such alienation, opposition or standoffish receptions.
Muckhswe kee sishet tepe?

Atehequa

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Re: Other than European
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2014, 06:28:20 pm »
Quote from: Atehequa;135200
Upon those Pagan forums that do have a section regarding America's indigenous spirituality, I often find myself being 'schooled' on how to be a "Native American" by a white person who has bought into the sparkly new age 'three wolf moon' misconception and deems thousands of years of a spiritual sense of being, practices and oral traditions as balderdash

[video=youtube;19JAMhAzXms]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19JAMhAzXms[/video]
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 06:44:33 pm by SunflowerP »
Muckhswe kee sishet tepe?

stephyjh

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Other than European
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2014, 06:33:09 pm »
Quote from: Atehequa;135186
I was wondering if the primitive spiritual beliefs of non-European people around the globe are considered 'Pagan' by those who practice forms of 'Paganism' that are European in origin?

I'm asking this because of often getting the cold shoulder by such Pagans on line as well as the few festivals I've attended which has me wondering if this behavior is prompted by a difference in beliefs or perhaps in skin color?

You sound a lot like a guy who used to be a member here and a friend of mine. He was a Santero and claimed repeatedly and at great length that people weren't interested in his remarks because he was brown. Really it was because he was trying to come into existing conversations and make them about him, and because he wanted to talk about things that weren't relevant to the rest of the group.
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

-Robert Burns

Atehequa

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Re: Other than European
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2014, 07:20:34 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;135204
You sound a lot like a guy who used to be a member here and a friend of mine. He was a Santero and claimed repeatedly and at great length that people weren't interested in his remarks because he was brown. Really it was because he was trying to come into existing conversations and make them about him, and because he wanted to talk about things that weren't relevant to the rest of the group.

Sound? Tell me how do you hear what is not spoken? There are no tones denoting any particular emotion.

Perhaps your 'friend' was being sincere in regards to his feelings and you couldn't fathom or respect that.

Relevant? You mean in a social club or cult sense? We have heard accounts of early Christian colonials and Americans refer to us as Pagan or Heathen Indians, so to me that makes us qualify as being relevant in the company of others interacting on what is labeled as being a Pagan forum.

Perhaps you thought this mention of your friend's experience here as an  
anecdote suitable enough for whatever intention it may serve? I am not that friend and therefore it could be taken on my part as being irrelevant.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 07:22:33 pm by Atehequa »
Muckhswe kee sishet tepe?

stephyjh

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Re: Other than European
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2014, 08:37:30 pm »
Quote from: Atehequa;135208
Sound? Tell me how do you hear what is not spoken? There are no tones denoting any particular emotion.

Perhaps your 'friend' was being sincere in regards to his feelings and you couldn't fathom or respect that.

Relevant? You mean in a social club or cult sense? We have heard accounts of early Christian colonials and Americans refer to us as Pagan or Heathen Indians, so to me that makes us qualify as being relevant in the company of others interacting on what is labeled as being a Pagan forum.

Perhaps you thought this mention of your friend's experience here as an  
anecdote suitable enough for whatever intention it may serve? I am not that friend and therefore it could be taken on my part as being irrelevant.

My point is, you clearly think you're dealing with racial issues, and it may be that people are put off by your race, or it may be that you're assigning motives where there are none, and what they're really put off by is the way you treat people. But the problem I had with him is the problem I have with you, that you say very derogatory and snotty things about others and then are annoyed that they don't want to play with you. When I taught preschool, my four-year-olds knew better.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 08:39:37 pm by stephyjh »
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

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Atehequa

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Re: Other than European
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2014, 09:02:53 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;135226
My point is, you clearly think you're dealing with racial issues, and it may be that people are put off by your race, or it may be that you're assigning motives where there are none, and what they're really put off by is the way you treat people. But the problem I had with him is the problem I have with you, that you say very derogatory and snotty things about others and then are annoyed that they don't want to play with you. When I taught preschool, my four-year-olds knew better.


You know, noble Galahad, this isn't some contest where people have to best one another. If your perception of my words is that of being derogatory, snotty and childish, then to you that is what they are.

But do go on and demonize me if it makes you feel worthwhile and on top of things.
Muckhswe kee sishet tepe?

mlr52

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Re: Other than European
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2014, 09:11:33 pm »
Quote from: Atehequa;135208
Sound? Tell me how do you hear what is not spoken? There are no tones denoting any particular emotion.



The choice of words and how they are used provide the sound.
Quote



Relevant? You mean in a social club or cult sense? We have heard accounts of early Christian colonials and Americans refer to us as Pagan or Heathen Indians, so to me that makes us qualify as being relevant in the company of others interacting on what is labeled as being a Pagan forum.

 

 
Can you clarify what you are trying to address?
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Atehequa

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Re: Other than European
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2014, 09:35:46 pm »
Quote from: mlr52;135231


 
Can you clarify what you are trying to address?


Apparently not so easily as far as you are concerned.

Let's try it again this way -

Cauldron, a Pagan Forum.
Atehequa, a Pagan

Private social clubs, either non-acceptance or if accepted having to know one's place regarding to particular rank and file.

Cult, cult-like mindset which does not condone individualism or disagreement.

True when spoken words become sounds, but when written there are none which kicks in imagination. Therefore impossible to determine if the writer is shaken, angry, happy or as calm as a large rock long set in hard clay.
Muckhswe kee sishet tepe?

Valentine

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Re: Other than European
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2014, 09:50:47 pm »
Quote from: Atehequa;135200
Greetings and my thanks for your reply

Always having an interest of the world's indigenous cultures and spiritual beliefs(including European) is what usually brings me to these Pagan online communities, but also there's a sense of kinship or even solidarity with others who call themselves Pagans which in my opinion means those of a spirituality other than the big 3 Monotheistic Abrahamic religions as well as the new age stew pot of piping hot and blended paths. Yet upon entering such realms and then attempting to be part of these communities, I'm usually met with people who rather than converse in a civil manner would rather resort to bumping up a two year old thread than engage in conversation with one who is not the standard European in origin Pagan. Upon those Pagan forums that do have a section regarding America's indigenous spirituality, I often find myself being 'schooled' on how to be a "Native American" by a white person who has bought into the sparkly new age 'three wolf moon' misconception and deems thousands of years of a spiritual sense of being, practices and oral traditions as balderdash. There was someone here that mentioned on another thread here that we NDNs don't speak of our spiritual beliefs openly to strangers. Not wholly true, Some of us discuss what we feel comfortable with.Not breaking tradition in regards to what some of us feel should be private is important and should never be subject to the standard - "Why be rude and not share. No one owns spirituality" line which I've experienced before. Then there's the band together and either run the traditional NDNs off or ban them that to me seems reminiscent of the old days when white European Christians would muster and chase us off or worse, shoot us down for disagreeing or being outspoken. Perhaps attempting to interact with such Pagans is a folly on my part, or maybe it has prompted me to just count some coup.  

Truly, I hate to think there is religious or racial bias upon and near these Pagan paths that are European in origin when an NDN or any other non-European Pagan person arrives to interact or make friends of sorts, but others I know, relations and friends always run into the same snags when attempting to do so. Our cultures and spiritual beliefs are not so savagely foreign to warrant such alienation, opposition or standoffish receptions.

 
I mean, there are actually a bunch of us here of indigenous descent and in traditions and practices of indigenous origin, and a bunch of us coming from non-European perspectives, and we're pretty active in the forum.  We tend not to talk about ourselves using words like "primitive" and "savage," so you might have missed it.  You didn't come in asking where we were or if we were here; you showed up on this forum and opened your participation by stating that we weren't here, that it was just you, and that you were the only one interested in discussing indigenous traditions--even while those discussions were going on.  And then you suggested that the reason that nobody was quick enough for your standards to join a conversation you started was race--when until you said so, nobody even knew you were Native.  (You came in talking about indigenous American stuff, but for all any of us knew, you were one of those plastic shamans that bugs you and bugs me and bugs a lot of us.)

I think part of the confusion was honestly that first post.  It looked a lot like "Where the Indians at?  Why isn't anyone talking about them?" and since nobody was aware you were one yourself, it looked like any number of similar posts from plastic-shaman types wanting some mystical Indian to come teach them Ancient Wisdom.  Stephy, having already dealt with a lot of that nonsense, responded by noting that sometimes Native people are turned away by racism, and sometimes those conversations are just happening where white people aren't privy to them, and you responded by condescending to her, assuming she was white, and lamenting that nobody was paying attention to you.

This is actually a pretty great community, and there are a lot of us here having the kinds of conversations you're asking about, quite a few of us of color, and quite a few of us coming from non-European traditions.  It's not perfect, and there are some race issues, but it's better at the Cauldron than any other online pagan group I've participated in.  If you listened to other people, you might be reassured.
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Valentine

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Re: Other than European
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2014, 09:54:53 pm »
Quote from: Atehequa;135200
Upon those Pagan forums that do have a section regarding America's indigenous spirituality, I often find myself being 'schooled' on how to be a "Native American" by a white person who has bought into the sparkly new age 'three wolf moon' misconception and deems thousands of years of a spiritual sense of being, practices and oral traditions as balderdash.

 
That sort of behavior is very much frowned upon here.
"Let be be finale of seem." - Wallace Stevens, "The Emperor of Ice-Cream"
"There isn't a way things should be.  There's just what happens, and what we do."
- Terry Pratchett, "A Hat Full of Sky"

stephyjh

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Re: Other than European
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2014, 10:13:46 pm »
Quote from: Atehequa;135233
Apparently not so easily as far as you are concerned.

Let's try it again this way -

Cauldron, a Pagan Forum.
Atehequa, a Pagan

Private social clubs, either non-acceptance or if accepted having to know one's place regarding to particular rank and file.

Cult, cult-like mindset which does not condone individualism or disagreement.

True when spoken words become sounds, but when written there are none which kicks in imagination. Therefore impossible to determine if the writer is shaken, angry, happy or as calm as a large rock long set in hard clay.

Look, I understand where you're coming from. I deal with the racist crap too, and since I'm light enough to pass, nobody believes I'm dealing with it, or they think because I look like them, I *am* like them and will be OK with it. I'm not on the records of my nation, because my great-grandmother (dad's mother's mother) lied on her census records, because it was safer to claim half black in the Jim Crow south than it was to claim Cherokee. My dad's father was on the records of the Cherokee in Oklahoma, but he didn't register the kids, even when they were living on reservation land when my dad was a kid, and when they cut ties with him for being an abuser, they had no access to his records, and my dad didn't even tell me the story until recently. So we *know* that my dad is mostly-Cherokee and a bit of Catawba, but there's no proof. The great-grandmother I listed above? her father passed, mother didn't. So instead of being allowed to acknowledge her mother in public, she was told to tell people that the woman walking her to school was her father's black housekeeper. On my mother's side, we never knew anything about where her father's mother was from, except that my mother's dark hair, olive complexion, and dark eyes came from her. It was years later, after her death, that a black family showed up at the home place saying that they'd done their family tree and that Mammaw was their aunt. Grandpa's sister was so surprised that she didn't even get the information from them so that the rest of us could see the details of where our family came from. I had a customer where I work go onto a rant the other day about how immigrants come into this country and want to change the culture to suit them, and when I answered, "Yeah, I know. I'm Native American," he stomped out and made a complaint about me. I get the anger. I really do. I'm angry too. I'm angry that half of my heritage will never be acknowledged, because it's not on paper. I'm angry at the Indian jokes I hear every day. I'm angry at my dad for using the N word around me. I'm angry about being too white for Native people and other people of color, and too much a person of color for white people. I'm angry at the people who come up to my sister and start speaking Spanish, because she doesn't have the high, sharp cheekbones common to Plains nations and therefore they automatically code her as non-English-speaking. I'm angry at "What nation are you?" "Cherokee." "Yeah, right. That's what everyone says." I'm angry at the disproportionate number of Native women who are raped, and the lack of care available to those victims. I'm angry at the rampant alcoholism and mental illness in our communities and the complete lack of necessary treatment being offered to those who are suffering.

But here's where I am on it, and if you're not there, I completely understand, and it's completely reasonable that you wouldn't be. My stance, at this point, is that there are so many people who want to bring the fight to us. I don't need to go looking for one, or to attack people who aren't hurting me because I can't fight the ones who are. So I'd like to have peace with you. Are you good with that?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 10:16:25 pm by stephyjh »
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

-Robert Burns

Atehequa

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Re: Other than European
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2014, 10:32:38 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;135244
Look, I understand where you're coming from. I deal with the racist crap too, and since I'm light enough to pass, nobody believes I'm dealing with it, or they think because I look like them, I *am* like them and will be OK with it. I'm not on the records of my nation, because my great-grandmother (dad's mother's mother) lied on her census records, because it was safer to claim half black in the Jim Crow south than it was to claim Cherokee. My dad's father was on the records of the Cherokee in Oklahoma, but he didn't register the kids, even when they were living on reservation land when my dad was a kid, and when they cut ties with him for being an abuser, they had no access to his records, and my dad didn't even tell me the story until recently. So we *know* that my dad is mostly-Cherokee and a bit of Catawba, but there's no proof. The great-grandmother I listed above? her father passed, mother didn't. So instead of being allowed to acknowledge her mother in public, she was told to tell people that the woman walking her to school was her father's black housekeeper. On my mother's side, we never knew anything about where her father's mother was from, except that my mother's dark hair, olive complexion, and dark eyes came from her. It was years later, after her death, that a black family showed up at the home place saying that they'd done their family tree and that Mammaw was their aunt. Grandpa's sister was so surprised that she didn't even get the information from them so that the rest of us could see the details of where our family came from. I had a customer where I work go onto a rant the other day about how immigrants come into this country and want to change the culture to suit them, and when I answered, "Yeah, I know. I'm Native American," he stomped out and made a complaint about me. I get the anger. I really do. I'm angry too. I'm angry that half of my heritage will never be acknowledged, because it's not on paper. I'm angry at the Indian jokes I hear every day. I'm angry at my dad for using the N word around me. I'm angry about being too white for Native people and other people of color, and too much a person of color for white people. I'm angry at the people who come up to my sister and start speaking Spanish, because she doesn't have the high, sharp cheekbones common to Plains nations and therefore they automatically code her as non-English-speaking. I'm angry at "What nation are you?" "Cherokee." "Yeah, right. That's what everyone says." I'm angry at the disproportionate number of Native women who are raped, and the lack of care available to those victims. I'm angry at the rampant alcoholism and mental illness in our communities and the complete lack of necessary treatment being offered to those who are suffering.

But here's where I am on it, and if you're not there, I completely understand, and it's completely reasonable that you wouldn't be. My stance, at this point, is that there are so many people who want to bring the fight to us. I don't need to go looking for one, or to attack people who aren't hurting me because I can't fight the ones who are. So I'd like to have peace with you. Are you good with that?

Well then, greetings to you.


See we have something in common, My Father although on the books as being Absentee Shawnee like my mother, siblings and I, he was about 1/8 Catawba. Another people who use to be our blood enemies.

I did not come here to fight, but do not bandy words when asking a question. We fought our best battles in the council lodge.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 10:37:31 pm by Atehequa »
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