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Author Topic: General/Non-Specific: no reincarnation  (Read 4421 times)

arete

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no reincarnation
« on: July 18, 2018, 09:40:17 am »
Are there any pagan religions that don't believe in reincarnation? All religions have a kind of afterlife, usually pagan religions speak of reincarnation, I am curious if there is a pagan religion that is the exception.

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Re: no reincarnation
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2018, 06:52:28 pm »
Are there any pagan religions that don't believe in reincarnation? All religions have a kind of afterlife, usually pagan religions speak of reincarnation, I am curious if there is a pagan religion that is the exception.

In my experience it's about 50/50. Also, there are some religions which don't specify what happens after death, so their followers will have individual beliefs about it.
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Re: no reincarnation
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2018, 09:50:35 pm »
Are there any pagan religions that don't believe in reincarnation? All religions have a kind of afterlife, usually pagan religions speak of reincarnation, I am curious if there is a pagan religion that is the exception.

Most pagan religions are multidoxic (I may have just made that word up, but I needed it), not orthodoxic; many belief options are available for any given question.  You will not find a pagan religion that "believes" much of anything; individual pagans, even practitioners of the same religion, will have a range of beliefs within the plausible range of options for their background.  (And quite likely some selection of beliefs that are heterodox for their background, given the herding-cats nature of many pagans.)

Even within religious structures that have some sort of standard assumption about afterlife stuff (again, not all of them), there will be variations, alternate threads, and alternate interpretations.  I personally cannot think of any pagan religions that are orthodoxic about reincarnation as a thing, though I have encountered a number of people, largely of a neo-Wiccan persuasion, who are insistent about it.  By the standards of having a sophisticated theology of reincarnation like the dharmic religions, any pagan reincarnation theology I've encountered has been... not sophisticated at all, and more often just kind of bolted on apparently under the principle that having an afterlife belief-set is essential to being a real religion.
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Re: no reincarnation
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2018, 01:12:51 pm »
Are there any pagan religions that don't believe in reincarnation? All religions have a kind of afterlife, usually pagan religions speak of reincarnation, I am curious if there is a pagan religion that is the exception.

There are tons! Many of the reconstructionist paths don't believe in reincarnation. There are Hellenic pagans who believe in the Greek notion of the afterlife, Kemetic pagans who believe in the Egyptian underworld, Mexica and Maya reconstructionists (some would argue that this isn't paganism; indigenous stuff get's a bit touchy), and many other religious paths believe in an afterlife that doesn't involve reincarnation.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

arete

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Re: no reincarnation
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2018, 01:38:47 pm »
Mexica and Maya reconstructionists (some would argue that this isn't paganism; indigenous stuff get's a bit touchy), and many other religious paths believe in an afterlife that doesn't involve reincarnation.
How come? Mexica and Maya seem pagan to me. Why would someone say the opposite?

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Re: no reincarnation
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2018, 03:52:48 pm »
How come? Mexica and Maya seem pagan to me. Why would someone say the opposite?

Because derivations of the living traditions of colonized people are in a different category than the stuff mostly white and certainly Westernized people have come up with in response to post-industrialization.

Because "pagan" as a pejorative term is applied to native traditions as an insult by mostly white and certainly Westernized people and a tool to obliterate those traditions in favor of Christianity.
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Yei

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Re: no reincarnation
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2018, 06:07:16 pm »
There are tons! Many of the reconstructionist paths don't believe in reincarnation. There are Hellenic pagans who believe in the Greek notion of the afterlife, Kemetic pagans who believe in the Egyptian underworld, Mexica and Maya reconstructionists (some would argue that this isn't paganism; indigenous stuff get's a bit touchy), and many other religious paths believe in an afterlife that doesn't involve reincarnation.

I can confirm that reincarnation is largely absent from Nahua, and Mesoamerican polytheism. However, there are a few exceptions. Warriors who died in battle (or who were offered to the sun god) are eventually reincarnated as either hummingbirds or butterflies. That's about it.

I have to point out that this is not part of a reincarnation cycle, in the vein of Hinduism or Buddhism. Its a once off event, a reward for courage, either on the battlefield or the altar.

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Re: no reincarnation
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2018, 06:11:23 pm »
How come? Mexica and Maya seem pagan to me. Why would someone say the opposite?

Because Pagan is used to describe religions that have their roots in Europe, either in ancient or modern times. Nahua and Maya religions come from Mexico and Guatemala, and therefore are not part of European religious progression. They also don't fit the progression of modern neo-pagan faiths, as they are extant faiths, and did not develop (or redevelop) in response to changing circumstances in Europe.

For my part, I merely describe myself as a polytheist.

Hariti

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Re: no reincarnation
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2018, 11:18:32 pm »
Because "pagan" as a pejorative term is applied to native traditions as an insult by mostly white and certainly Westernized people and a tool to obliterate those traditions in favor of Christianity.

Unless, of course, someone chooses to self identify as Pagan. Like myself!

Hinduism isn't pagan as a general rule, but as far as I am concerned, my own Hindu practice is Pagan. That doesn't mean you should go around calling other Hindus Pagan, however, without their approval.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

arete

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Re: no reincarnation
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2018, 11:23:53 am »
Because Pagan is used to describe religions that have their roots in Europe, either in ancient or modern times. Nahua and Maya religions come from Mexico and Guatemala, and therefore are not part of European religious progression. They also don't fit the progression of modern neo-pagan faiths, as they are extant faiths, and did not develop (or redevelop) in response to changing circumstances in Europe.

For my part, I merely describe myself as a polytheist.
Europe. I see pagan as global, but Europe or not it's details.

Uneryx

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Re: no reincarnation
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2018, 05:25:06 pm »
Europe. I see pagan as global, but Europe or not it's details.

It's really not "just details" though? Yes, neopaganism is practiced around the world, but there's some major fundamental differences between polytheistic recon faiths, living traditions of the native peoples of North America, and something like Wicca or neopaganism.

Like, to an insulting degree. As EnderFireDragon said, Hinduism is NOT paganism, but what he personally does could count. The majority of practicing Hindus aren't pagans, and would be insulted.

It's like saying Evangelicals and Catholics are identical, the dogma differences are "just details." To an outsider, maybe? But to people who believe and practice those faiths those differences are MAJOR and VERY IMPORTANT. Just because someone approaches the divine pantheistically or polytheistically does not mean it's "just details" or splitting hairs. Those differences mean a whole hell of a lot to the people practicing those systems.

Furthermore, etymologically, "pagan" is a latin-derived word that was originally used to sneerily put down the rural farmers who still worshipped their gods rather than the state-ordained gods of Rome (whether that was Jupiter or Jesus). "Paganus" meant farmer, hick, bumpkin. Later, pagan meant "yokel who still puts milk out for the faeries, what a dingus". Over time it came to mean what i does now, but saying it's "mere details" to call this a European thing flies in the face of factual history. Pagan is a European term.

And if someone who does not practice a European faith says they aren't pagan, it's not just details. Its a fact of their faith.

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Re: no reincarnation
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2018, 06:21:28 pm »
Europe. I see pagan as global, but Europe or not it's details.

But it is not just details. There are very real and important distinctions, historical, theological, and practical, between polytheistic religion in Europe and the Americas.

An uncountable number of problems have been caused because people just assumed that the European experience was universal and could be applied without qualification, or even supporting evidence.

arete

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Re: no reincarnation
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2018, 09:32:45 am »
But it is not just details. There are very real and important distinctions, historical, theological, and practical, between polytheistic religion in Europe and the Americas.

An uncountable number of problems have been caused because people just assumed that the European experience was universal and could be applied without qualification, or even supporting evidence.
It's really not "just details" though? Yes, neopaganism is practiced around the world, but there's some major fundamental differences between polytheistic recon faiths, living traditions of the native peoples of North America, and something like Wicca or neopaganism.

Like, to an insulting degree. As EnderFireDragon said, Hinduism is NOT paganism, but what he personally does could count. The majority of practicing Hindus aren't pagans, and would be insulted.

It's like saying Evangelicals and Catholics are identical, the dogma differences are "just details." To an outsider, maybe? But to people who believe and practice those faiths those differences are MAJOR and VERY IMPORTANT. Just because someone approaches the divine pantheistically or polytheistically does not mean it's "just details" or splitting hairs. Those differences mean a whole hell of a lot to the people practicing those systems.

Furthermore, etymologically, "pagan" is a latin-derived word that was originally used to sneerily put down the rural farmers who still worshipped their gods rather than the state-ordained gods of Rome (whether that was Jupiter or Jesus). "Paganus" meant farmer, hick, bumpkin. Later, pagan meant "yokel who still puts milk out for the faeries, what a dingus". Over time it came to mean what i does now, but saying it's "mere details" to call this a European thing flies in the face of factual history. Pagan is a European term.

And if someone who does not practice a European faith says they aren't pagan, it's not just details. Its a fact of their faith.
european religions have a common with american religions; their religions are indigenous, that's why I call both pagan.

Darkhawk

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Re: no reincarnation
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2018, 11:15:34 am »
european religions have a common with american religions; their religions are indigenous, that's why I call both pagan.

If you mean "indigenous religion", why not say "indigenous religion", rather than use a word that is incorrect?
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Hariti

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Re: no reincarnation
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2018, 02:53:32 pm »
If you mean "indigenous religion", why not say "indigenous religion", rather than use a word that is incorrect?

I for one totally get why they are using the term "pagan," that way. That's how the Christian church uses it, it's how Islam uses it, it's how ancient Romans used it (and even ancient Zoroastrians), and it's still how a large portion of modern Western society uses it. I hear people use "pagan" and "polytheistic" as a synonyms all the time in everyday speech, along with "idolaters," and "heathens." It's a word that people use to label other people's religious beliefs as fundamentally different from their own, usually with a negative connotation or to designate them as backwards.

Now, academically, it's not used that way any more, except rarely in historical research. I don't think it should be used that way, either, unless a group wants to adopt the label! However, I do understand how one could come to use it that way. People pick up on the vernacular, even if it's incorrect or impolite, and using "pagan" this way is indeed the vernacular in many places.

I mean, go into any church in the American south, that isn't UU, and you have probably got a 50% chance to hear the preacher (or priest) use the word pagan in this way.

"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

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