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Author Topic: Is respect and love for Celctic Culture required to be a druid?  (Read 2360 times)

Phi92

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... or can you ignore the cultural and accept the conceptual and still call yourself a druid? :)

Asch

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Re: Is respect and love for Celctic Culture required to be a druid?
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2013, 05:24:50 pm »
Quote from: Phi92;102378
... or can you ignore the cultural and accept the conceptual and still call yourself a druid? :)

 
I would say a certain level of understanding and awareness of the culture is required because otherwise why use the term Druid / Neo-Druid? Why not use another term? Words mean things and to use the word Druid implies some connection to the culture the word derives from.

My $0.02

Rhyshadow

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Re: Is respect and love for Celctic Culture required to be a druid?
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2013, 05:26:54 pm »
Quote from: Phi92;102378
... or can you ignore the cultural and accept the conceptual and still call yourself a druid? :)

 
Depends on what style of Druidry you're practicing

Neo-Druidism, which follows the Ceremonial style prevalent in Wicca and other paths is a recent invention, harking back to the 19th century romanticized version of what Druids were all about - In that case, the cultural aspects are secondary or not even acknowledged in some groves.

Some Reconstructionists call themselves Druids and very much are involved in the cultural, historical and conceptual parts

And there's middle ground too, so the style you're working with determines the value placed on each part and you can follow which ever one you choose and decide for yourself how you wish to travel the path

Jack

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Re: Is respect and love for Celctic Culture required to be a druid?
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2013, 06:16:00 pm »
Quote from: Asch;102379
I would say a certain level of understanding and awareness of the culture is required because otherwise why use the term Druid / Neo-Druid? Why not use another term? Words mean things and to use the word Druid implies some connection to the culture the word derives from.

My $0.02

 
In my case, I use the word druid as an ADF member, which doesn't require any particular interest in the Celtic hearth cultures. "Druid" is, however, the ADF's word for what its members are.
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Sage

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Re: Is respect and love for Celctic Culture required to be a druid?
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2013, 06:43:55 pm »
Quote from: Phi92;102378
... or can you ignore the cultural and accept the conceptual and still call yourself a druid? :)

 
While the term "druid" definitely has an amount of flexibility built into it (and there's no one authority for what druidry IS), it's not quite as versatile as, say, the terms witch, magician, or spirit-worker.

I'm a member of ADF as well, and within that organization is the ONLY time I have ever heard of a non-Celtic style of Druidry; but even then, ADF Druidry means something, and there's a difference between someone who chooses to worship the Greek gods within an ADF context, and someone who might be better suited to Hellenic Reconstructionism.

A more important question might be: what do you think Druidry is, and what use do you have (or not have) for a Celtic worldview?
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Naomi J

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Is respect and love for Celctic Culture required to be a druid?
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2013, 06:39:00 am »
Quote from: Phi92;102378
... or can you ignore the cultural and accept the conceptual and still call yourself a druid? :)

Here in the UK, the majority of people I've met who follow a Druidic path would not consider themselves Celtic or even Celtic-influenced. My OBOD grove includes a number of Norse-influenced types, some people doing detailed research into Brythonic tribes and their gods, and some experienced eclectic types (backgrounds in things like ceremonial magic) - and me and one other who would call ourselves Celtic-influenced, but each in very different ways. OBOD druidry was only partly influenced by Celtic culture, and my observation (which of course is anecdotal) is that it's becoming ever less so, here, along with other UK druid orders. You might be interested in looking up the Druid Network - http://druidnetwork.org/ - which is very eclectic in its influences. Lots of good research and training materials on their site.
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Phi92

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Re: Is respect and love for Celctic Culture required to be a druid?
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2013, 10:43:13 am »
Thank you all for your opinions! :)

As an Eclectic Pagan, my worldview is influenced by Daoism, Native American spirituality, indigenous tribes (Piaroa people and others), Wicca, Druidism and (to a lesser extent) various ethnic paganism (Norse, Slavic, Celtic)...

I don't feel comfortable calling my self a druid or something else if I'm not a part of that culture or if I don't feel a close and strong bond to the culture.

Chinese culture is probably my most favourite :)

Jack

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Re: Is respect and love for Celctic Culture required to be a druid?
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2013, 11:23:21 am »
Quote from: Phi92;102471
Thank you all for your opinions! :)

As an Eclectic Pagan, my worldview is influenced by Daoism, Native American spirituality, indigenous tribes (Piaroa people and others), Wicca, Druidism and (to a lesser extent) various ethnic paganism (Norse, Slavic, Celtic)...

I don't feel comfortable calling my self a druid or something else if I'm not a part of that culture or if I don't feel a close and strong bond to the culture.

Chinese culture is probably my most favourite :)

 
That's a breadth of belief that's pretty familiar to me, actually! Which Native American tribes' beliefs have you studied?

I should clarify that I usually only call myself a druid in ADF-related contexts, or where I'm talking about druidry (frex on my blog).
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Phi92

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Re: Is respect and love for Celctic Culture required to be a druid?
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2013, 07:55:33 pm »
Quote from: Jack;102480
That's a breadth of belief that's pretty familiar to me, actually! Which Native American tribes' beliefs have you studied?

I should clarify that I usually only call myself a druid in ADF-related contexts, or where I'm talking about druidry (frex on my blog).

 
The Sioux, mostly :)

Donal

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Re: Is respect and love for Celctic Culture required to be a druid?
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2013, 09:08:10 pm »
Quote from: Sophia Catherine;102440
Here in the UK, the majority of people I've met who follow a Druidic path would not consider themselves Celtic or even Celtic-influenced. My OBOD grove includes a number of Norse-influenced types, some people doing detailed research into Brythonic tribes and their gods, and some experienced eclectic types (backgrounds in things like ceremonial magic) - and me and one other who would call ourselves Celtic-influenced, but each in very different ways. OBOD druidry was only partly influenced by Celtic culture, and my observation (which of course is anecdotal) is that it's becoming ever less so, here, along with other UK druid orders. You might be interested in looking up the Druid Network - http://druidnetwork.org/ - which is very eclectic in its influences. Lots of good research and training materials on their site.


That's interesting. I did not know that there is something called a non-Celtic influenced Druid.

Doesn't that defeat the purpose, though? Being a Druid without Celticism is sort of like calling yourself a Viking, yet you worship Bast and don't practice any type of Norse culture. What exactly is the point in cases like that?

People are of course absolutely free to worship however they choose, call themselves what they will, and do what they want culturally. Yet the idea of a Druid who is not interested in Celtic Culture seems kind of odd to me.

Oh, well, to each their own.

Donal
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 09:09:09 pm by Donal »
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Asch

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Re: Is respect and love for Celctic Culture required to be a druid?
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2013, 01:31:29 am »
Quote from: Donal;102901
That's interesting. I did not know that there is something called a non-Celtic influenced Druid.

Doesn't that defeat the purpose, though? Being a Druid without Celticism is sort of like calling yourself a Viking, yet you worship Bast and don't practice any type of Norse culture. What exactly is the point in cases like that?

People are of course absolutely free to worship however they choose, call themselves what they will, and do what they want culturally. Yet the idea of a Druid who is not interested in Celtic Culture seems kind of odd to me.

Oh, well, to each their own.

Donal


Heh I am similarly curious. I know in the context of ADF non-Celtic hearth cultures are considered druid as the org is focused on IE / Proto-IE cultures as the source for ADF Druidry soo yeah. (I happen to have a Celtic hearth culture but a few friends I've brought to our Groves Hellenic or Norse rites have been thrown and done the :confused: when presented with the ritual)

Anyhoo, I'm curious as to how that works and whether, since this is evidently happening in the British Isles there isn't a de facto Celtic aspect self evident due to the cultural inheritance etc.

Blah, there are my babbles :D

savveir

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Re: Is respect and love for Celctic Culture required to be a druid?
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2013, 02:57:34 am »
Quote from: Asch;102938
Heh I am similarly curious. I know in the context of ADF non-Celtic hearth cultures are considered druid as the org is focused on IE / Proto-IE cultures as the source for ADF Druidry soo yeah. (I happen to have a Celtic hearth culture but a few friends I've brought to our Groves Hellenic or Norse rites have been thrown and done the :confused: when presented with the ritual)

Anyhoo, I'm curious as to how that works and whether, since this is evidently happening in the British Isles there isn't a de facto Celtic aspect self evident due to the cultural inheritance etc.

Blah, there are my babbles :D

 
I can only really speak for the ADF side of things, but they have a number of different hearth cultures supported through Kins in the organisation. The members of which come from all corners, though admittedly a large portion of those are american.
I'm a member of the slavic kin for instance, but I perform ritual within an ADF framework, my rituals will contain the same things that are in a celtic style ADF ritual.

so what I'm getting at is that I think this is about more than just culture, it's working within a druidic based framework.
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Naomi J

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Re: Is respect and love for Celctic Culture required to be a druid?
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2013, 03:02:27 am »
Quote from: Asch;102938
Anyhoo, I'm curious as to how that works and whether, since this is evidently happening in the British Isles there isn't a de facto Celtic aspect self evident due to the cultural inheritance etc.


No, because Celtic is not our only cultural influence. We also (actually, mainly) have Brythonic and Germanic, and all kinds of other influences. And as I said, revival druidry was not solely influenced by Celtic ideas (though those were very strong). ADF druidry is very different from OBOD druidry, which acknowledges a lot of cultural-spiritual influences for British neo-druids. And OBOD has more in common with other British druid orders than any of them do with ADF.

I'm sorry, but to say we are 'de facto Celtic' is reductionist. To some extent we probably are less focused on our Celtic heritage because it's just 'there' - but lots of other aspects of our heritage are just 'there', too. That cultural mixture is what it means to be British, and that's a big part of what modern British druidry is drawing on (IMO). A lot of the British druids I know have problems with the concept of 'Celtic' in the sense that it doesn't really mean anything. I would tend to agree. In Britain our primary heritage is Brythonic, and many British druids take a lot of their influence from what we know about those tribes (which were *not* all 'Welsh'). My ancestors were Gaelic. I mainly use the term 'Celtic' with Americans, because it's widely used among American druids, CRs, Wiccans etc, but if I use it in Britain I will very quickly be asked "What exactly do you mean by Celtic?" and be told to get specific. Which is fair enough.

It's in America, in what is essentially the 'Celtic' diaspora, that there is a strong focus on that concept. I usually see a brief nod to the controversy over the concept, followed by never mentioning that again. It's not the same for those of us who are very aware of our mixed ancestry in an island full of cultural mongrels and spiritual magpies. There is a lot of influence of the 'Celtic revival' in UK neo-druidry, but it is understood that is not our only influence. OBOD were doing druidry in its own way before ADF was invented, and it has just as much right to use the term. It's using it in the way that neo-druidry has been using it since the nineteenth century. This is not a new thing that is "happening" here!
 
I feel a bit like I'm being talked about like an alien here. Of course British druidry is going to be different from American druidry. We are a very different culture - despite that being masked by our sharing a language. Remember that things are often seen differently in diaspora from places where they stayed indigenous and part of the big melting pot of cultural influence.

If you want to find out more, people who write about this very British style of druidry include Cat Treadwell and Emma Restall-Orr. The British Druid Order is the perfect example of it (I'm thinking of re-starting their bardic grade course), and the Druid Network is to a slightly lesser extent. The British druid orders are NOT the same as ADF druidry, and British druidry deserves respect as its own spiritual movement with strong modern cultural influences.
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Asch

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Re: Is respect and love for Celctic Culture required to be a druid?
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2013, 03:27:14 am »
Quote from: Sophia Catherine;102949


If you want to find out more, people who write about this very British style of druidry include Cat Treadwell and Emma Restall-Orr. The British Druid Order is the perfect example of it (I'm thinking of re-starting their bardic grade course), and the Druid Network is to a slightly lesser extent. The British druid orders are NOT the same as ADF druidry, and British druidry deserves respect as its own spiritual movement with strong modern cultural influences.

 
I wasn't intending to be reductionist or insulting rather speaking to the perception (as an admitted outsider, having an English father is irrelevant in this context) that from this perspective what we consider 'celtic' will have a role in British culture, not THE role but 'A' role.

I also didn't intend to use ADF as the be all end all for 'Druid but not celtic druid' but as an example of the use of the term druid outside what might be more clearly / obviously a 'celtic' framework.

I'm aware of much of the controversy around the term celtic but being a yank slip in to the bad habit of generalization.

I apologize if I stepped on toes or was presumptive or insulting.

Naomi J

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Re: Is respect and love for Celctic Culture required to be a druid?
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2013, 04:03:21 am »
Quote from: Asch;102950
I wasn't intending to be reductionist or insulting rather speaking to the perception (as an admitted outsider, having an English father is irrelevant in this context) that from this perspective what we consider 'celtic' will have a role in British culture, not THE role but 'A' role.

I also didn't intend to use ADF as the be all end all for 'Druid but not celtic druid' but as an example of the use of the term druid outside what might be more clearly / obviously a 'celtic' framework.

I'm aware of much of the controversy around the term celtic but being a yank slip in to the bad habit of generalization.

I apologize if I stepped on toes or was presumptive or insulting.

 
No worries - and I'm sorry for getting stressed at you. I hear comments from a lot of Americans on this subject that are along the lines of "What are the Brits calling druidry??" - almost as though we borrowed it from America. :D: Paganism generally is very different in the UK from the US, and there are going to be marked differences in what we call certain things. Just as an example, you never hear witches calling themselves Wiccans here unless they're part of a coven. When I first encountered an American neo-Wiccan, I got very confused. :)

You're right that what often gets called 'Celtic' is part of our cultural influence. There's been a bit of (what I consider) an anti-Celtic backlash in the UK recently, and that probably affects where I'm coming from when the term is used. This is complicated by the fact that I do call my personal practice Celtic. I'm just an oddbod with a strong interest in my Irish and Welsh ancestry. A lot of the UK druids think I'm very strange... (If you were ever to visit my OBOD grove, I would suggest that you never use the term Celtic around them. It's one of the words that has people rolling their eyes. Also frowned upon is singing 'John Barleycorn'.)
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