Found on my hard drive: the "You Can't Be Pagan" list

[SunflowerP]

Man the things you miss, being away from here. Yeah, I was the one who collated all that from the thread, which is why I had it around.

 
I'm a bit embarrassed that I not only didn't remember in-thread that it was you, but that I didn't remember when you turned up again (that's how I do my good-at-remembering-people thing: it's because I remember things about them - so it's disconcerting when I don't).

It occurred to me earlier that having this available again is also timely - there's been a lot of discussion (and no little friction, some of it very heated) in Greater Pagandom the past several months about pagan identity, and about definitions/assumptions that exclude some or another group. While the things on your list are for the most part the ridiculous, fluffy extreme, they're still part of the overall picture of 'how people feel alienated'.

Sunflower

[XenophonSpeaks]

So I was looking over the Teen Pagans FAQ and saw that it still had a mention of this compilation, even though it disappeared from the Web when Geocities went down. The timestamp on the file is August 2007 (has it really been that long?); it lists 248 points and is 7 pages in word. And here it is in all its absurd glory ...

 
This was both highly entertaining to read and really educational as well in it's own way. It's a good reminder (for me, anyway) not to be so judgmental of people. Seriously, a big thank you for sharing-- and for compiling this in the first place.

[Sefiru]

I'm a bit embarrassed that I not only didn't remember in-thread that it was you, but that I didn't remember when you turned up again

Don't worry about it. As I recall, the list as originally posted didn't have my name on it, since in my head, the TC community were the true "authors".

there's been a lot of discussion (and no little friction, some of it very heated) in Greater Pagandom the past several months about pagan identity

 
Plus ca change. I don't think this sort of discussion will ever go away. My $0.02: 'Pagan(ism)' is a very broad term, and usefully so, in the same way as 'clothes', 'food' or 'musician' are usefully broad words, and used alongside more specific identifiers.

[SunflowerP]

Plus ca change. I don't think this sort of discussion will ever go away. My $0.02: 'Pagan(ism)' is a very broad term, and usefully so, in the same way as 'clothes', 'food' or 'musician' are usefully broad words, and used alongside more specific identifiers.

 
The discussions do seem to be developing more depth and nuance than I've seen in the past, and I have hopes that they might have useful long-term results.

I've a thing or eighteen to say to the subject myself, and have been mentally composing blogposts. Ifwhen I do write and post, I would love to make use of (i.e., quote - I'd say 'with whatever attribution you prefer', but I'm likely to also be linking this thread) the analogy in your last line.

Sunflower

[Sefiru]

I would love to make use of (i.e., quote - I'd say 'with whatever attribution you prefer', but I'm likely to also be linking this thread) the analogy in your last line.

Go ahead! (Yay, I said something insightful!)

BTW, if anyone has any new ways they've been told "You can't be Pagan", I'd love to hear them.

[RunningWolf]

===========================================================
Well, I Guess That Means We’re Not Pagan After All…


The list that follows is compiled from the responses of TC members to the thread “You can’t be Pagan because …”. Each of the items on this list has been told to at least one person as a reason they couldn’t be pagan; I have edited only to make the grammar match. The supposedly clever titles are my own invention. So, in no particular order:

Tasteless Philistines

You can’t be pagan because …
… you don’t like:
   … Silver Ravenwolf.
   … “pagan music”.
   … Celtic music.
   … “wimmin’s music”.
   … New Age music.
   … Enya.
   … Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
  … you like:
   … country music.
   … industrial music.
   … heavy metal.
   … boy bands.
   … anything other than pagan music.
   ... you’re not a Goth.
… you watch TV.
… you make Star Trek references.
… you LARP.
… you don’t believe Dungeons and Dragons is real.
… you don’t believe the Ren Fest is a way of life.

I’m Normal, Everyone Else Is A Pervert

You can’t be pagan because …
… you’re not gay
… you’re not kinky.
… you’re into BDSM.
… you’re monogamous.
… you’re a prude.
… you’re celibate.
… you won’t have sex with a random stranger.
… you won’t have sex with them.
   … to pass on your magical powers.


That’s Funny, You Don’t *Look* Pagan

You can’t be pagan because …
… you wear colors.
… you wear black.
… you wear underwear.
… you don’t wear a cloak.
… you don’t wear a ton of pagan style jewelry.

Carrot Juice Is Murder

You can’t be pagan because …
… you’re not vegan.
… you’re not vegetarian.
… you’re not a political vegetarian.
… you eat meat.
… you eat venison.
… you drink soda.
… you smoke pot.
… you don’t use illegal drugs.

Have You Hugged a Tree Today?

You can’t be pagan because …
… you’re not nature-centered.
… you wear insect repellent.
… you hate insects, spiders, and centipedes.
… you hate winter.
… you don’t live in the country.
… you prefer to live in the city.
… you don’t have a garden.
… you buy your herbs at the supermarket.
… you shop at Wal-mart.
… you shop anywhere but a thrift shop.
… you buy brand X.
… you don’t buy brand X.
… you wear anything that’s not completely cruelty-free and eco-friendly.
… you own a car.
… you don’t mind synthetics.
… you don’t consider technology evil.
… you can’t live without electronics.
… you want to be a scientist.

Bad Medicine

You can’t be pagan because …
… you have allergies.
   … to cats.
… you take medication.
… you take anti-depressants.
… you use glasses.
… you use modern medicine instead of herbals.
… you use anything other than faith for healing.

Wimmin are from Venus,
Male Chauvinist Pigs are from Mars

You can’t be pagan because …
… you don’t conform to X  gender stereotype.
You're a woman who...
   … wears clothes.
   … wears a bra.
   … doesn’t cycle in tune with the moon.
   … doesn’t consider her period a spiritual experience.
   … gets PMS.
   … doesn’t have children.
  … you’re not Feminist.
… you refuse to misspell “women” to defeat the dominant male paradigm.

Oh No, You’re One of “Those” People

You can’t be pagan because …
… you’re not a teenager.
… you’re not from X country.
… you’re poor.
… you’re not a pacifist.
… you know how to fight.
… you don’t support cause X.
… you’re not politically active.
… you vote for anything but the Green Party.
… you’re pro death penalty.
… you vote Republican.

Get Your Wicca On

You can’t be pagan because …
… you don’t follow the Wiccan Rede.
… you’re not Wiccan.
… you don’t care about Wicca one way or the other.
… you’re not initiated.
… you’re not in a coven.
… you don’t celebrate the Sabbats.
… you don’t follow the Wheel of the Year.
… you don’t know the secret names of the gods.
… you don’t worship the Lord and Lady.
… you don’t follow Celtic deities.
… you’re more in tune with a god than a goddess.
… you worship a male god.
… you follow gods they don’t like.
… your path is not based on morals.
… you don’t follow a particular path.
… you follow a path they haven’t heard of.
… you don’t practice a path taken from popular fiction.
… you don’t believe they’re a “Guardian” as in Mercedes Lackey.
… you don’t believe there is one single “Pagan Community.”
… you don’t call yourself a witch.
… you don’t call yourself a priest.
… you’re not recon enough.
… you don’t keep your path a secret.

Christian Rays (and other dangers)

You can’t be pagan because …
… you’re friends with someone they think is evil.
… you don’t have a problem with Satanism.
… you have Christian friends.
… you speak to your Christian parents.
… you don’t hate Christians.
… you don’t hate fundies.
… you believe in Satan.
… you believe in Hell.
… you have a Bible.
   … and read it.
… you think Jesus had some good ideas.
… you celebrate Christmas.
… you have a Christmas tree.
   … and Christmas lights.

Feel The Magic

You can’t be pagan because …
… you don’t cast circles.
… you don’t do big fancy rituals.
… you don’t do rituals outside under the moon.
… you don’t do rituals skyclad.
… you wear what you like for rituals.
… you don’t do rituals.
… you don’t have a magical name.
… you work magic without tools.
… you don’t do magic.
… you don’t have a familiar.
… you don’t have spirit guides.
… you practice “Black magic”.
… your practices scare them.
… you don’t believe they’re under attack by spirits/demons/black magic.
… you won’t teach them a spell to kill their enemies.
… you don’t take “witchcraft” in fictional pieces as gospel truth.
… you keep track of whether your spells were successful.
… you’re not willing to just “let the magic work”.

What Really Happened

You can’t be Pagan because …
… you’re not personally offended by the witch trials of the 17th and 18th centuries.
… you don’t want the Catholics to give you reparations for your holy sites.
… you don’t believe that Jesus was a Wiccan.
   … and the Apostles were his coven.
   … and they were gay.
… you don’t believe that there was an ancient, universal, peaceful matriarchy.
… you don’t believe that …
   … 9 million witches were killed during the burning times.
   … the burning times happened in the Middle Ages.
   … all of the accused were burned.
   … they were all really witches.
   … only Catholics were doing the burnings.
… you can discuss at length, with references, the nonsense of The Burning Times.
… you call the Burning Times “the Medieval McDonalds”.
… you are not one of the descendants of the 100 maiden witches burned at Salem, Massachusetts.
… you are not the reincarnation of …
   … an elf, dragon or fantasy creature.
   … a famous mythical character.
   … a historical person of royal lineage.
…"All of us christians wiped you out a long time ago. There aren't any more pagans."
… “the ancient Romans did NOT have a religion and did not believe in the gods.”

Check Your Brain At The Door

You can’t be pagan because …
… you don’t trust all other pagans without question.
… you don’t agree with them.
    … even on a topic unrelated to religion.
… you don’t condemn other pagans for not being just like you.
… you criticize others.
… you can laugh at your own faith.
… you don’t take yourself too seriously.
… you’re not inclined to play the lottery.
… you believe in science.
… you don’t see the world as black and white.
… you think rationally.
… you get angry.
… you cuss.
… you’re willing to insult people.
… you’re willing to ignore people.
… you delight in mocking the ridiculous behavior of others.

And of course, no member of TC can be a true pagan since we’ve all been warlocked to wonder the grey mists forever. (sic)

This is all the stuff that applies to me...so nope, I just got kicked out of Pagan Club. LOL :

[Caffeinated Autumn]

So I was looking over the Teen Pagans FAQ and saw that it still had a mention of this compilation, even though it disappeared from the Web when Geocities went down. The timestamp on the file is August 2007 (has it really been that long?); it lists 248 points and is 7 pages in word. And here it is in all its absurd glory ...
match. The supposedly clever titles are my own invention. So, in no particular order:

 
you like:

...industrial music.
… heavy metal.

You can’t be pagan because …
… you’re into BDSM.
… you’re monogamous.
… you take anti-depressants. (But-but... TTATT )
… doesn’t consider her period a spiritual experience. (>>; umm....yeah that's a bit much for me)
… gets PMS. (who doesn't?)
… you celebrate Christmas.
… you have a Christmas tree.
… and Christmas lights. (Heeyy, Christmas is lovely!)
… you don’t believe that Jesus was a Wiccan.
… and the Apostles were his coven.
… and they were gay. (xD lulz)
… you cuss. (Well, fuck..)
… you believe in science. (There is a lot of convincing evidence out there...)
… you don’t see the world as black and white.
… you think rationally. (especially in a time of crisis)
… you get angry. (Again, who doesn't?)

Man....looks like it's back to square one  ┐(￣ヮ￣)┌

[SerpentineSorcerer]

So I was looking over the Teen Pagans FAQ and saw that it still had a mention of this compilation, even though it disappeared from the Web when Geocities went down. The timestamp on the file is August 2007 (has it really been that long?); it lists 248 points and is 7 pages in word. And here it is in all its absurd glory ...


And of course, no member of TC can be a true pagan since we’ve all been warlocked to wonder the grey mists forever. (sic)

 

You can’t be pagan because …
… you don’t like:
… Silver Ravenwolf.
… “wimmin’s music”.
… New Age music.
… you like:
… country music.
… industrial music.
… heavy metal.
… you watch TV.
… you make Star Trek references.
… you LARP.
… you don’t believe Dungeons and Dragons is real.
… you don’t believe the Ren Fest is a way of life.

I’m Normal, Everyone Else Is A Pervert

You can’t be pagan because …
… you’re into BDSM.
… you’re monogamous.
… you won’t have sex with a random stranger.
… you won’t have sex with them.
… to pass on your magical powers.


That’s Funny, You Don’t *Look* Pagan

You can’t be pagan because …
… you wear colors.
… you wear black.
… you wear underwear.
… you don’t wear a cloak.
… you don’t wear a ton of pagan style jewelry.

Carrot Juice Is Murder

You can’t be pagan because …
… you’re not vegan.
… you’re not vegetarian.
… you’re not a political vegetarian.
… you eat meat.
… you eat venison.
… you drink soda.
… you smoke pot.
… you don’t use illegal drugs.

Have You Hugged a Tree Today?

You can’t be pagan because …
… you’re not nature-centered.
… you wear insect repellent.
… you buy brand X.
… you don’t buy brand X.
… you wear anything that’s not completely cruelty-free and eco-friendly.
… you own a car.
… you don’t mind synthetics.
… you don’t consider technology evil.
… you can’t live without electronics.
… you want to be a scientist.

Bad Medicine

You can’t be pagan because …
… you use glasses.
… you use modern medicine instead of herbals.
… you use anything other than faith for healing.

Wimmin are from Venus,
Male Chauvinist Pigs are from Mars

You can’t be pagan because …
… you don’t conform to X gender stereotype.


Oh No, You’re One of “Those” People

You can’t be pagan because …
… you’re not a teenager.
… you’re not from X country.
… you’re poor.
… you’re not a pacifist.
… you know how to fight.
… you don’t support cause X.
… you’re pro death penalty.

Get Your Wicca On

You can’t be pagan because …
… you don’t follow the Wiccan Rede.
… you’re not Wiccan.
… you don’t care about Wicca one way or the other.
… you’re not initiated.
… you’re not in a coven.
… you don’t celebrate the Sabbats.
… you don’t follow the Wheel of the Year.
… you don’t know the secret names of the gods.
… you don’t worship the Lord and Lady.
… you don’t follow Celtic deities.
… you’re more in tune with a god than a goddess.
… you worship a male god.
… you follow gods they don’t like.
… you follow a path they haven’t heard of.
… you don’t practice a path taken from popular fiction.
… you don’t believe they’re a “Guardian” as in Mercedes Lackey.
… you don’t believe there is one single “Pagan Community.”
… you don’t keep your path a secret.

Christian Rays (and other dangers)

You can’t be pagan because …
… you’re friends with someone they think is evil.
… you don’t have a problem with Satanism.
… you have Christian friends.
… you speak to your Christian parents.
… you don’t hate Christians.
… you believe in Satan.
… you believe in Hell.
… you have a Bible.
… and read it.
… you think Jesus had some good ideas.
… you celebrate Christmas.
… you have a Christmas tree.
… and Christmas lights.

Feel The Magic

You can’t be pagan because …
… you don’t do rituals skyclad.
… you wear what you like for rituals.
… you don’t have a magical name.
… you work magic without tools.
… you practice “Black magic”.
… your practices scare them.
… you won’t teach them a spell to kill their enemies.
… you don’t take “witchcraft” in fictional pieces as gospel truth.
… you keep track of whether your spells were successful.
… you’re not willing to just “let the magic work”.

What Really Happened

You can’t be Pagan because …
… you don’t want the Catholics to give you reparations for your holy sites.
… you don’t believe that Jesus was a Wiccan.
… and the Apostles were his coven.
… and they were gay.
… you don’t believe that there was an ancient, universal, peaceful matriarchy.
… you don’t believe that …
… 9 million witches were killed during the burning times.
… the burning times happened in the Middle Ages.
… all of the accused were burned.
… they were all really witches.
… only Catholics were doing the burnings.
… you can discuss at length, with references, the nonsense of The Burning Times.
… you call the Burning Times “the Medieval McDonalds”.
… you are not one of the descendants of the 100 maiden witches burned at Salem, Massachusetts.
… you are not the reincarnation of …
… an elf, dragon or fantasy creature.
… a famous mythical character.
… a historical person of royal lineage.
…"All of us christians wiped you out a long time ago. There aren't any more pagans."
… “the ancient Romans did NOT have a religion and did not believe in the gods.”

Check Your Brain At The Door

You can’t be pagan because …
… you don’t trust all other pagans without question.
… you don’t agree with them.
… even on a topic unrelated to religion.
… you don’t condemn other pagans for not being just like you.
… you criticize others.
… you can laugh at your own faith.
… you don’t take yourself too seriously.
… you’re not inclined to play the lottery.
… you believe in science.
… you don’t see the world as black and white.
… you think rationally.
… you get angry.
… you cuss.
… you’re willing to insult people.
… you’re willing to ignore people.
… you delight in mocking the ridiculous behavior of others.


Well hell, I wonder if I radiate anti-paganness like stink lines an old cartoon, might explain a few things :p

[Sefiru]

Well hell, I wonder if I radiate anti-paganness like stink lines an old cartoon, might explain a few things :p

Impressive!

… you smoke pot.
… you don’t use illegal drugs.

It suddenly occurs to me that when this was written, these items were mutually exclusive (across North America at least); now depending on jurisdiction they might not be.

[SerpentineSorcerer]

It suddenly occurs to me that when this was written, these items were mutually exclusive (across North America at least); now depending on jurisdiction they might not be.

 
Thus why I put both in mine. Honestly, pot being legalized is something that should have been done a very long time ago, but that's a discussion for a different thread.

[NanLT]

Hmmm ---- according to about 3/4 of this, I couldn't possibly by a Pagan. :whis:
I'm just surprised not to see something about not being Pagan because I'm too old. :eek:

Tasteless Philistines

You can’t be pagan because …
… you don’t like:
   … Silver Ravenwolf.
   … Laurel K Hamilton.
   … their favorite pagan author.
   … “pagan music”.
   … Celtic music.
   … “wimmin’s music”.
   … New Age music.

and the rest.....
 

[Sefiru]

Hmmm ---- according to about 3/4 of this, I couldn't possibly by a Pagan. :whis:
I'm just surprised not to see something about not being Pagan because I'm too old. :eek:

I think it's in there as "...because you're not a teenager." That's the only age-related one.

[SunflowerP]

I think it's in there as "...because you're not a teenager." That's the only age-related one.

 
In that case, there probably should be an item for 'because you're too young/because you are a teenager'. I've never been personally targeted by that one, obviously, but I have certainly, on many occasions, heard people insist that no person under 16, or 18, or even 25, could possibly be able to be sufficiently serious about religion as to be a Real Pagan - the teens (or college-age people) couldn't possibly be doing it for any reason other than trendiness or parent-shocking.

Sunflower

[NanLT]

In that case, there probably should be an item for 'because you're too young/because you are a teenager'. I've never been personally targeted by that one, obviously, but I have certainly, on many occasions, heard people insist that no person under 16, or 18, or even 25, could possibly be able to be sufficiently serious about religion as to be a Real Pagan - the teens (or college-age people) couldn't possibly be doing it for any reason other than trendiness or parent-shocking.

Sunflower

I've met up with enough teenagers who were obviously not just doing this for the shock value, and enough 40-somethings who obviously were.

I also managed to set one person's bias towards all people Pagan on edge because I was obviously an exception to his rule that all pagans were only doing it in order to rebel/shock the establishment/because it's trendy.

[Ladywhitewolf]

I've met up with enough teenagers who were obviously not just doing this for the shock value, and enough 40-somethings who obviously were.

I also managed to set one person's bias towards all people Pagan on edge because I was obviously an exception to his rule that all pagans were only doing it in order to rebel/shock the establishment/because it's trendy.

 
I am glad I wasn't drinking anything while I looked that list. I would of choked.