collapse
2017 Donation Drive -- Please Help Keep TC Online

It's time for our annual Server Donation Drive! We need to raise just over $850 to keep The Cauldron's server online for another year. Please help! Either hit that Paypal button to the right and make a one-time donation in any amount or set up a monthly Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor subscription. You can find more info in this message!

Donations as of 16 September: Only $296 more (after Paypal fees) needed to reach our goal! Please donate if you can.


* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: Dedicatory Religious Witchcraft (DRW)  (Read 7837 times)

Miss

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Sep 2011
  • Posts: 150
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Dedicatory Religious Witchcraft (DRW)
« on: October 15, 2011, 02:17:27 pm »
I wanted a further discussion on the "I'm not Wiccan, but..." thread located here: http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/showthread.php?822-quot-I-m-Not-Wiccan-but...-quot&highlight=wiccan
As well a discussion of a new labeling bracket people are coming to use called DRW.

I know Wiccans/neo-wiccans are in the minority here, but I was really enamored with this idea. Jannett also has a lot of information on her website that is quite good.Sorry if I just botched your username. Some information on DRW from the people who coined the term are here: http://rootsofritual.wordpress.com/category/through-the-leaves/

I spend a lot of time on forums that are mostly neo-wiccan, and I am part of a few "study groups" in person that are comprised of mostly people who identify with Wicca as well.

I always feel that most who label themselves "Wiccan" shouldn't(non-traditional Wiccans). Some people get really upset at people who don't want them using this title. Some people use the term neo-wicca. Some people do the whole "I'm not Wiccan, but..." I see a lot of people who lack confidence in their title, so DRW seems to fix a lot of those issues. I think it might be a good way to say you practice religious witchcraft without associating yourself controversially with Wicca/neo-Wicca.

So I'd like to hear some opinions from everyone! If Janett or someone else has made a thread on this previously I didn't find it (I'm a technological dolt), so if that's the case I'd like to just bump the old thread and delete this one.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 01:52:40 pm by RandallS »

Micheál

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Belfast, N. Ireland
  • Posts: 551
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: ie
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
    • Gall-Ghael
  • Religion: Alexandrian Wicca, Gaelic Polytheism
Re: Dedicatory Religious Witchcraft (DRW)
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2011, 04:54:06 pm »
Quote from: Miss;25539

So I'd like to hear some opinions from everyone! If Janett or someone else has made a thread on this previously I didn't find it (I'm a technological dolt), so if that's the case I'd like to just bump the old thread and delete this one.

All valid points of concern that have been debated throughout the evolution of Wicca. It has been kind of "up for grabs" since Valiente&the Farrars acknowledge the craft's evolution on top of it being hi-jacked, and the term (of the)Wica(actually pronounced as "Wisha", and used in the genitive) was originally put to use because its use in O.E. I've seen other articles and debates over the use of the term Wicca by un- lineaged practitioners of the outer-court because of its O.E roots that some people believe ownership can't be put on, but that's another topic.

I personally don't have any issues with the use of the term by those that believe they are adhering to traditions that relate to the original mystery tradition, although I would prefer it to be used in accordance to the AlGard traditions because being part of a Traditional coven myself, the term implies certain things to me, and would also be less confusing in my use of it to others who may not know what tradition I belong to& not lump me in with those that I don't.

Amidst the progression of pagan witchcraft we have seen quite a few good labels other than neo, eclectic, or solitary "Wicca" such as Religious, Progressive, Traditional, Hedge, e.t.c, plus this Dedicatory Religious Witchcraft mentioned in the link. All wonderful trads with seemingly valid use of labels. The only thing that does raise my brow a bit in regards to Dedicatory Religious Witchcraft is that if it's placing importance on the Outer-Court, it could be confusing its importance in Trad Wicca, such as their use of the Rede&the Charge as tenets, which are meant to be very subjective in Traditional Wicca. Janet Farrar even told us Doreen Valiente grew to despise her own Charge because people where sticking to it word for word like robots, robbing it of all connection with the emotion and spirituality it is meant to arouse. The 13 Principles of Wiccan Belief is also very controversial in Trad circles, especially here in the UK&Ireland where Wicca all started. This has been in recent focus due to the recent revival of the Council of the American council of Witches.
An elder of mine even says, "I Disagree with 12 of them!"
Semper Fidelis

Lokabrenna

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 829
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Dedicatory Religious Witchcraft (DRW)
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2011, 05:34:34 pm »
Quote from: Miss;25539

So I'd like to hear some opinions from everyone! If Janett or someone else has made a thread on this previously I didn't find it (I'm a technological dolt), so if that's the case I'd like to just bump the old thread and delete this one.


I like the term, but it is a bit of a mouthful!

I'd also like to add that when I was studying religion in university (which was at least two years ago) the term "Neo-Wicca" was NEVER brought up in any of my courses that mentioned Wicca (not even by my Pagan professor). The terms that were used were "British Traditional Wicca" (Gardnerian and Alexandrian traditions) and "Wicca/Eclectic Wicca" (everything else) so I find the use of the term "Neo-Wicca" a little confuzzling. Sometimes it even seems to be used as a slur, the way some reconstructionists like to use "neopagan" to mean "person who is doin' it wrong".

Miss

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Sep 2011
  • Posts: 150
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Dedicatory Religious Witchcraft (DRW)
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2011, 06:25:08 pm »
Quote from: Micheál;25556
All valid points of concern that have been debated throughout the evolution of Wicca. It has been kind of "up for grabs" since Valiente&the Farrars acknowledge the craft's evolution on top of it being hi-jacked, and the term (of the)Wica(actually pronounced as "Wisha", and used in the genitive) was originally put to use because its use in O.E. I've seen other articles and debates over the use of the term Wicca by un- lineaged practitioners of the outer-court because of its O.E roots that some people believe ownership can't be put on, but that's another topic.

I personally don't have any issues with the use of the term by those that believe they are adhering to traditions that relate to the original mystery tradition, although I would prefer it to be used in accordance to the AlGard traditions because being part of a Traditional coven myself, the term implies certain things to me, and would also be less confusing in my use of it to others who may not know what tradition I belong to& not lump me in with those that I don't.

Amidst the progression of pagan witchcraft we have seen quite a few good labels other than neo, eclectic, or solitary "Wicca" such as Religious, Progressive, Traditional, Hedge, e.t.c, plus this Dedicatory Religious Witchcraft mentioned in the link. All wonderful trads with seemingly valid use of labels. The only thing that does raise my brow a bit in regards to Dedicatory Religious Witchcraft is that if it's placing importance on the Outer-Court, it could be confusing its importance in Trad Wicca, such as their use of the Rede&the Charge as tenets, which are meant to be very subjective in Traditional Wicca. Janet Farrar even told us Doreen Valiente grew to despise her own Charge because people where sticking to it word for word like robots, robbing it of all connection with the emotion and spirituality it is meant to arouse. The 13 Principles of Wiccan Belief is also very controversial in Trad circles, especially here in the UK&Ireland where Wicca all started. This has been in recent focus due to the recent revival of the Council of the American council of Witches.
An elder of mine even says, "I Disagree with 12 of them!"

 
I just LOVE that I got a response from someone involved with traditional Wicca! It makes me all giddy. I know, I'm lame.

The DRW emphasis on the 13 principles and various materials is a bit "eyebrow raising" so your point is definitely something to think about.Thank you for this input!

It's quite a new label, so I'm sure it will be refurbished over time if it continues to stick.

@Lokabrenna

I can't help but associating the name Neo-Wicca with something bad,either. Neo-Wiccan sounds like watered down, fake Wicca. Just from the title "Neo-Wiccan". I don't feel anyone who identifies with that title has any less value in their practice(Their beliefs are just as valid to me!), it's the just the name that makes me feel this way.

Definitely some more for me to think about.Thank you!

Lokabrenna

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 829
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Dedicatory Religious Witchcraft (DRW)
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2011, 06:34:13 pm »
Quote from: Miss;25569

@Lokabrenna

I can't help but associating the name Neo-Wicca with something bad,either. Neo-Wiccan sounds like watered down, fake Wicca. Just from the title "Neo-Wiccan". I don't feel anyone who identifies with that title has any less value in their practice(Their beliefs are just as valid to me!), it's the just the name that makes me feel this way.

Definitely some more for me to think about.Thank you!


Well, if someone is comfortable with using that term to describe themselves, I don't have a problem with that as long as they aren't claiming to be Gardnerian when they haven't been initiated into a Gardnerian coven, but I've mostly seen others apply this label to someone, as in "So-and-so is a Neo-Wiccan [where Neo-Wiccan is pronounced like 'tapeworm']," and that doesn't sit well with me at all.

Then again, I'm not Wiccan, I just hate it when all non-BTW Wiccans are painted with the same brush, kind of like how "Wiccatru" in Heathen circles has come to mean "people/groups I don't like worshiping MY Germanic gods".

Micheál

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Belfast, N. Ireland
  • Posts: 551
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: ie
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
    • Gall-Ghael
  • Religion: Alexandrian Wicca, Gaelic Polytheism
Re: Dedicatory Religious Witchcraft (DRW)
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2011, 07:53:46 pm »
Quote from: Miss;25569
I just LOVE that I got a response from someone involved with traditional Wicca! It makes me all giddy. I know, I'm lame.

The DRW emphasis on the 13 principles and various materials is a bit "eyebrow raising" so your point is definitely something to think about.Thank you for this input!

It's quite a new label, so I'm sure it will be refurbished over time if it continues to stick.


No probs at all! We have quite a few members knowledgeable on the subject, and these topics are always fun. ;)
Semper Fidelis

sephira

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Sep 2011
  • Posts: 151
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Dedicatory Religious Witchcraft (DRW)
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2011, 02:01:13 am »
Quote from: Micheál;25556
The 13 Principles of Wiccan Belief is also very controversial in Trad circles, especially here in the UK&Ireland where Wicca all started. This has been in recent focus due to the recent revival of the Council of the American council of Witches.
An elder of mine even says, "I Disagree with 12 of them!"

 

 
At first when I heard of DRW I said "Yay. Maybe something has come along that has made Witchcraft into something religious without being Wicca-meaning sans ceremonial magick". I must learn not to rush into things so fast because then, upon further research of their website, and the 13 principles of witchcraft (or Wiccan Belief-however you want to look at it), and even the 13 goals of a witch (DRW requirements), I realized it is just another name for a belief system based on the Wiccan tradition. I guess I was hoping it was going to be something completely different from or removed from Wiccan tradition, but what it is is a setting for solitary witches who want to practice Wiccan traditions without being labeled Neo-Wicca, among other things. I wish them well, but I can't even look at the 13 principles of witchcraft, as Miss said, without a little bit of "eyebrow raising" myself.
Ergo, I wanted to comment on Micheál(you don't know what I had to go through to get that inflection on that letter a!) and the story about the elder only agreeing with 1 of the 12 of the principles: I can relate on that as well. I was saying to Miss earlier that I often forget esbats and only realize that it is one when I happen to notice the moon is full, then I honor the moon, not with any ceremony or anything, but typically with words. Now does that make me a bad witch, or no witch at all, because I don't follow that complete set of principles accurately? And I certainly don't see anything as the "Wiccan Way". Again it begs the question I already asked. I always believed that witchcraft was personal, meaning it was what you made of it. Am I wrong in this assumption? Am I supposed to be following a set a guidelines? Now I'M confused!

Sorry if I rambled!
"If it ain\'t fun, it ain\'t worth doing!"

Micheál

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Belfast, N. Ireland
  • Posts: 551
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: ie
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
    • Gall-Ghael
  • Religion: Alexandrian Wicca, Gaelic Polytheism
Re: Dedicatory Religious Witchcraft (DRW)
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2011, 03:59:29 am »
Quote from: sephira;25620

Ergo, I wanted to comment on Micheál(you don't know what I had to go through to get that inflection on that letter a!) and the story about the elder only agreeing with 1 of the 12 of the principles: I can relate on that as well. I was saying to Miss earlier that I often forget esbats and only realize that it is one when I happen to notice the moon is full, then I honor the moon, not with any ceremony or anything, but typically with words. Now does that make me a bad witch, or no witch at all, because I don't follow that complete set of principles accurately? And I certainly don't see anything as the "Wiccan Way". Again it begs the question I already asked. I always believed that witchcraft was personal, meaning it was what you made of it. Am I wrong in this assumption? Am I supposed to be following a set a guidelines? Now I'M confused!

Sorry if I rambled!

It's all good, and yea, those fadas can be a pain without a European Keyboard, but Michael or Mike even does me too. You'd be right in assuming that witchcraft is personal. Being somewhat of a re-claimed term of a secular art, you have to follow specifics to be a part of certain groups&traditions, but on its own it is very personal. The use of the term, system of crafting magic(k), and belief or disbelief in deity or deities is completely up to the individual, and your way of doing so is significant to your spirituality. Although Wicca has had a tremendous influence on modern religious witchcraft traditions, there are certainly many other traditions, approaches, and groups out there, maybe some that do affiliate with the 13 Principles for ex.

There are adorations towards the moon in many traditions(from rites to just a few words), and one may choose to do so by acknowledging its phases relating to natural forces&energies, aspects of deity, or even the choice of not putting any stock into acknowledging it at all. Obviously certain traditions may have a specific praxis for it, but that's what makes it unique and defines the practices of that tradition, which kind of relates to our topic of certain labels implying certain ways.
Semper Fidelis

Livia Indica

  • Sr. Apprentice
  • ****
  • Join Date: Aug 2011
  • Posts: 61
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Dedicatory Religious Witchcraft (DRW)
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2011, 04:52:14 am »
Quote from: Miss;25539
I wanted a further discussion on the "I'm not Wiccan, but..." thread located here: http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/showthread.php?822-quot-I-m-Not-Wiccan-but...-quot&highlight=wiccan
As well a discussion of a new labeling bracket people are coming to use called DRW.

I know Wiccans/neo-wiccans are in the minority here, but I was really enamored with this idea. Jannett also has a lot of information on her website that is quite good.Sorry if I just botched your username. Some information on DRW from the people who coined the term are here: http://rootsofritual.wordpress.com/category/through-the-leaves/

 
I was liking the term too until I read their requirements. Then I realized it's still got way too much Wicca in it to fit me. But good on them for defining themselves if that makes them happy.  It is a mouthful but it seems so many witchy or Wicca based path names are these days, I guess that's just a response to those of us who don't know quite what to call ourselves. I had never heard the term "neo-Wicca" til I read this thread!

SunflowerP

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Calgary AB
  • Posts: 7103
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 16
  • Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
    • View Profile
    • If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough
  • Religion: Eclectic religious Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: sie/hir/hirs/hirself
Re: Dedicatory Religious Witchcraft (DRW)
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2011, 06:41:30 am »
Quote from: Miss;25539
Some information on DRW from the people who coined the term are here: http://rootsofritual.wordpress.com/category/through-the-leaves/

 
I'll hang the rest of my reply off of Micheál's (copypaste is my friend when it comes to things like fadas!), but one thing I want to address here is that these folks are mistaken about the origin of the term Neo-Wicca.

It was coined right here on TC, and doesn't just mean "anything not BTW".  I couldn't quickly find the explanation of its meaning over on the archive board, but fortunately I had it in my own files:

Quote
TC describes NeoWicca as “the revised form of Wicca that first became popular in the 1990s. Unlike traditional Wicca, it generally stresses the Wiccan Rede as law and downplays traditional Wicca's focus on sex and death. Some people now use the term "Neo-Wicca" is a negative manner, but we simply use the term to label the newer forum of Wicca”.


I should perhaps elaborate that, in the above quote, "traditional Wicca" doesn't refer to BTW alone, but also to the (relatively) "traditional" derivations and offshoots that emerged before the pop-pagan book boom of the '90s - trads whose founders had BTW lineage but made changes in praxis that meant their lines were no longer considered BTW (Protean, Algard, etc), trads that didn't have/claim traceable BTW lineage but were clearly very Wiccanesque (Georgian, Isian, etc), and much of what had for decades been known as Eclectic Wicca.

I don't really fault the DRW folks for thinking it was a BTW coinage; BTW picked up on it quite early and most of the BTW who use it do use it to mean "anything not BTW".  But in any discussion on the subject here on TC, the original TC usage should not be omitted.

Sunflower
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

RandallS

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 9394
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 20
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: Dedicatory Religious Witchcraft (DRW)
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2011, 08:07:13 am »
Quote from: SunflowerP;25640
It was coined right here on TC, and doesn't just mean "anything not BTW".

Unfortunately, the term "Neo-Wicca" quickly became "negative" and its meaning as non-specific as "Wicca" in general when it passed outside our board. The "negative" part really annoys me.

Quote
I should perhaps elaborate that, in the above quote, "traditional Wicca" doesn't refer to BTW alone, but also to the (relatively) "traditional" derivations and offshoots that emerged before the pop-pagan book boom of the '90s - trads whose founders had BTW lineage but made changes in praxis that meant their lines were no longer considered BTW (Protean, Algard, etc), trads that didn't have/claim traceable BTW lineage but were clearly very Wiccanesque (Georgian, Isian, etc), and much of what had for decades been known as Eclectic Wicca.

To elaborate a bit on what you said: Before the late 1980s, almost all Wiccan groups and eclectics based their practices on what was known about BTW (which is quite a bit) and on "outer court" material created by BTWs. Cunningham's Wicca: A Guide for the Solitary Practitioner probably started the move toward Neo-Wicca, but Ravenwolf's To Ride a Silver Broomstick is probably what firmly set it as its own major branch of the "Wiccan family tree."
Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog] -- Out Of Print & Out Of Style Tabletop Roleplaying Games
Software Gadgets Blog -- Interesting Software, Mostly Free
Cheap Web Hosting -- Find an Affordable Web Host

SunflowerP

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Calgary AB
  • Posts: 7103
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 16
  • Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
    • View Profile
    • If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough
  • Religion: Eclectic religious Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: sie/hir/hirs/hirself
Re: Dedicatory Religious Witchcraft (DRW)
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2011, 08:45:29 am »
Quote from: Micheál;25556
All valid points of concern that have been debated throughout the evolution of Wicca. It has been kind of "up for grabs" since Valiente&the Farrars acknowledge the craft's evolution on top of it being hi-jacked, and the term (of the)Wica(actually pronounced as "Wisha", and used in the genitive) was originally put to use because its use in O.E. I've seen other articles and debates over the use of the term Wicca by un- lineaged practitioners of the outer-court because of its O.E roots that some people believe ownership can't be put on, but that's another topic.


The broader definition of "Wicca" has been in play for much too long, in North America at any rate, for it to be re-narrowed to BTW-only.  Not to mention that, in the Witch Wars of the '70s (again, NA history; the UK [and possibly Ireland, but I don't think it had spread there significantly at that point] had their own Witch Wars in the '60s, with somewhat different issues in play), the contentious word was "witch".  A practitioner of exoteric-Wicca-derived eclectic religious witchcraft was far less likely to be derided as "not a real witch, because you don't have initiatory lineage" if s/he described hir path as Eclectic Wicca - that, more than anything else, spurred non-BTW usage.

IMO, the single-c spelling (which, while equally authentic to OE since that predates standardization of spelling, enters the modern lexicon directly from Gardner's use of it in Witchcraft Today) and the genitive construction, are an excellent compromise - and likely to go over better in the UK/Ireland, where "BTW" is often objected to.

Quote
Amidst the progression of pagan witchcraft we have seen quite a few good labels other than neo, eclectic, or solitary "Wicca" such as Religious, Progressive, Traditional, Hedge, e.t.c, plus this Dedicatory Religious Witchcraft mentioned in the link. All wonderful trads with seemingly valid use of labels. The only thing that does raise my brow a bit in regards to Dedicatory Religious Witchcraft is that if it's placing importance on the Outer-Court, it could be confusing its importance in Trad Wicca, such as their use of the Rede&the Charge as tenets, which are meant to be very subjective in Traditional Wicca. Janet Farrar even told us Doreen Valiente grew to despise her own Charge because people where sticking to it word for word like robots, robbing it of all connection with the emotion and spirituality it is meant to arouse.


Frankly, the DRW folks' focus on "Outer Court" is a dead giveaway of how poorly they've actually researched the relevant history.  It suggests the common misapprehension that having an Outer Court is normative, if not universal, in BTW, and also conflates "outer court" with the broader term "exoteric", giving the false impression that the exoteric source materials on which Eclectic Wicca is built are all, or primarily, Outer Court material.  (Also the impression, which I have no way to identify as true or false at this point, that they think "outer court" is simply, "the witchy word for 'exoteric'," rather than referring to a specific exoteric structure.)

Since an excessively rigid and prescriptive interpretation of the Rede and its significance is a hallmark of NeoWicca as per TC's usage, it's tempting for me to class excessively rigid and prescriptive use of the Charge as more of the same (when done by non-BTW - I'll let the Wica themselves decide how they prefer to describe initiates of the Wica who do it... but I hope they do it where I can hear:pop:).  But IME the Charge isn't in very wide use among NeoWiccans; I think I just have to shake my head about prescriptivism generally.

Quote
The 13 Principles of Wiccan Belief is also very controversial in Trad circles, especially here in the UK&Ireland where Wicca all started. This has been in recent focus due to the recent revival of the Council of the American council of Witches.


Oh, gods, what a trainwreck.  (I've been wondering whether to post about that in the Religious News folder, or not; now that it's come up, I guess I should.)  As was the original council - people, Mike didn't make a typo when he used "council" twice there; the original group was inconsistent, and used both "The Council of American Witches" and "The American Council of Witches".  IMO, combining the two is apt commentary.

If it's possible to use the term "Llewicca" in a non-derogatory way, I'd posit that it's the precisely accurate term to apply to that form of Eclectic Wicca which adheres to the 13 Principles.

[/I] An elder of mine even says, "I Disagree with 12 of them!"[/QUOTE]
 
I'm e-quainted with the gentleman, via the Amber & Jet e-list (and if ever I'm in Ireland, having a beer, or at least a coffee, with the two of you is at the top of my to-do list).

It should be noted, since Sephira already supposed it to mean he agreed with the remaining one, that he doesn't; he just can't make enough sense of it to agree or disagree.

Neither can I - it's a word salad of '60s buzzwords.

This is rather disjointed and probably incomplete; there's a huge amount of history that comes into this topic, and I neither want to overwhelm yous with a massive infodump, nor spend all my spoons on it (when it comes to neoPagan movement history, I have trouble drawing the line between "enough info to understand sufficiently" and "enough info to understand properly").

Sunflower
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

SunflowerP

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Calgary AB
  • Posts: 7103
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 16
  • Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
    • View Profile
    • If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough
  • Religion: Eclectic religious Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: sie/hir/hirs/hirself
Re: Dedicatory Religious Witchcraft (DRW)
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2011, 09:11:32 am »
Quote from: RandallS;25643
To elaborate a bit on what you said: Before the late 1980s, almost all Wiccan groups and eclectics based their practices on what was known about BTW (which is quite a bit) and on "outer court" material created by BTWs. Cunningham's Wicca: A Guide for the Solitary Practitioner probably started the move toward Neo-Wicca, but Ravenwolf's To Ride a Silver Broomstick is probably what firmly set it as its own major branch of the "Wiccan family tree."

 
I was hoping you'd come along and elaborate!

Yes, that sums it up well.  There are any number of other early-'90s books that, collectively, were instrumental in the process (it was a book boom, after all), but SRW's is the one that really stands out as individually instrumental.

And IMO the foundations of NeoWicca were developing even before Cunningham (I see indications in that direction as far back as Buckland's The Tree) - I used to think of it as being derived from Eclectic Wicca in much the same way that Eclectic Wicca derives from BTW, but I now consider it to have been a strand of thought that was developing within/alongside EW, not yet cohesive enough to be identifiably distinct, from before EW had a name.

Sunflower, who doesn't seem to be able to take her historian hat off now that it's on
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

Miss

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Sep 2011
  • Posts: 150
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Dedicatory Religious Witchcraft (DRW)
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2011, 09:46:24 am »
Quote from: SunflowerP;25649
The broader definition of "Wicca" has been in play for much too long, in North America at any rate, for it to be re-narrowed to BTW-only.  


Frankly, the DRW folks' focus on "Outer Court" is a dead giveaway of how poorly they've actually researched the relevant history.  It suggests the common misapprehension that having an Outer Court is normative, if not universal, in BTW, and also conflates "outer court" with the broader term "exoteric", giving the false impression that the exoteric source materials on which Eclectic Wicca is built are all, or primarily, Outer Court material.  (Also the impression, which I have no way to identify as true or false at this point, that they think "outer court" is simply, "the witchy word for 'exoteric'," rather than referring to a specific exoteric structure.)

If it's possible to use the term "Llewicca" in a non-derogatory way, I'd posit that it's the precisely accurate term to apply to that form of Eclectic Wicca which adheres to the 13 Principles.

[/I] An elder of mine even says, "I Disagree with 12 of them!"

 

Sunflower[/QUOTE]
 
Sorry, had to cut away a lot of text :p

I'm really glad I put this thread up here! If I put it in some other places I know I think people would have a hissy. I usually see people very vehemently defending BTW as the ones who should have the title "wiccan" all to themselves. Luckily here I get very reasonable, fact-filled responses. You guys are amazing!

It's a lot of information to absorb at 6 o' clock in the morning, but I'd like to share this information and input you all gave with the people of DRW.

I think, in the end, I am enamored with the title of DRW because of experiences I've had with pagans on less civilized boards. If I were to use DRW, it would be to avoid excessive arguments and possibly harassment. In some ways it's a bad reason to use such a title, but internet arguments kind of stink.

I had no idea that neo-wicca was coined here either! Yet another reason I'm glad I posted this here, because I wouldn't have known otherwise!

I am now going to spend the rest of my morning soaking all of this in...:o

Jenett

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Boston, MA
  • Posts: 2472
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 71
    • View Profile
    • Seeking: First steps on a path
  • Religion: Initiatory religious witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: Dedicatory Religious Witchcraft (DRW)
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2011, 09:54:57 am »
Quote from: Miss;25652

I think, in the end, I am enamored with the title of DRW because of experiences I've had with pagans on less civilized boards. If I were to use DRW, it would be to avoid excessive arguments and possibly harassment. In some ways it's a bad reason to use such a title, but internet arguments kind of stink.


Sunflower and Randall have between them said most of the things I think I would have said - but I'd add here, that one of the reasons for 'dedicatory religious witchcraft' as a term was that it parallels not 'religious witchcraft' (a broad category, where, yes, a bunch of the stuff is Wiccan-influenced, but also things like kitchen witchery, hedge witchery, a bunch of what people are calling Old Craft traditions, etc. - so long as they have a religious component, not solely a magical one.)

Instead, DRW was intended to parallel Initiatory Religious Witchcraft, a grouping of religions that, yes, includes trad Wicca - but also includes initiatory witchcraft groups of other kinds (Feri, for example), but also a wide range of other small trads. (which, as I've said on other previous threads and my website, is where the trad I'm in falls: a lot of our outer forms are very similar to trad Wicca, but I'm convinced we're focusing on different core mysteries, and therefore, should maybe use a different name.)

I know that DRW has been trying to narrow itself in some ways to a more specific 'this is how we approach things/what we believe', but I sort of regret that, because I think it's a more useful term when you're describing a bunch of different practices (as parallel to Initiatory Religious Witchcraft: Feri initiates have, f'ex, very different takes on some subjects to what I do, but we get there through some of the same approaches.)
Seek Knowledge, Find Wisdom: Research help on esoteric and eclectic topics (consulting and other services)

Seeking: first steps on a Pagan path (advice for seekers and people new to Paganism)

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
4 Replies
873 Views
Last post September 04, 2012, 03:57:41 pm
by Sage
2 Replies
1071 Views
Last post March 09, 2013, 08:48:28 am
by Escaflowne
47 Replies
4497 Views
Last post June 27, 2013, 10:41:15 am
by Phouka
9 Replies
760 Views
Last post March 18, 2014, 01:54:24 pm
by AthenaiiseSofia
6 Replies
1044 Views
Last post August 05, 2014, 07:18:10 pm
by makaroth

* Members in Chat

0 members chatting in CauldronMUX:
Updated every five minutes or so

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 21
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 1
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Co-Hosts:
LyricFox & Randall

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Sunflower

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Board Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, Emma-Eldritch, HarpingHawke, Jenett, Morag, rocquelaire, Sefiru, Tana

CauldronMUX Chat Staff
Chief MUX Wizard:
Darkhawk

Reserve Staff:
Aisling, Bob, Catja, Fausta, Sperran, Steve

Cauldron Council:
Everfool, Jubes, Kelly, Koi, Melamphoros, Ocelot, Phouka, Sashapablo, Star

Cauldron Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]

Site Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]
Webmaster:
Randall