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Author Topic: Christo-Paganism: Some Answered Questions  (Read 9792 times)

sailor

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Re: Christo-Paganism: Some Answered Questions
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2012, 12:02:35 am »
Quote from: Staff of Sekhmet;58562
Yeah it shocks me too because the Methodist church I attended some when I lived on the west coast was very liberal

 
Considering what the General Conference has passed recently, such as women in Afghanistan will be better off under the Taliban than under the US, one has to wonder at the term liberal.

Staff of Sekhmet

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Re: Christo-Paganism: Some Answered Questions
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2012, 12:19:57 am »
Quote from: sailor;58575
Considering what the General Conference has passed recently, such as women in Afghanistan will be better off under the Taliban than under the US, one has to wonder at the term liberal.

 
I know that there are more conservative Methodist congregations absolutely

sailor

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Re: Christo-Paganism: Some Answered Questions
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2012, 01:36:05 am »
Quote from: Staff of Sekhmet;58579
I know that there are more conservative Methodist congregations absolutely

 
General Conference is the body for the entire Methodist denomination, not just a few congregations.

Staff of Sekhmet

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Re: Christo-Paganism: Some Answered Questions
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2012, 02:43:18 am »
Quote from: sailor;58580
General Conference is the body for the entire Methodist denomination, not just a few congregations.

 
Yeah but at General Conference the majority rules. That's not to say all Methodist congregations are that conservative or liberal

veggiewolf

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Re: Christo-Paganism: Some Answered Questions
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2012, 10:31:29 am »
Quote from: Staff of Sekhmet;58504
Because taking the sacrament is part of what Jesus taught, and important even by my view. I am a member of the Episcopal Church and have been for years. They have open communion, and as I said the layperson's tenets are not required to match what the church teaches. However, I am wondering if you have another suggestion? Do you think I shouldn't be Episcopalian or receive Communion? I have been a member for years, I enjoy the fellowship and community.

Honestly, I think you shouldn't receive Communion if you are not a baptised and actively-practicing Christian following the tenets of the church with which you associate.  In the church in which I grew up, everyone was welcome to come up to the rail for Communion, but those who were not baptised Christians and/or didn't practice Christianity received a blessing rather than the host.

Now, obviously, you'll do what you think is right; I just happen to disagree.  After all, I have been known to attend church with my parents when necessary and even though I grew up in that congregation and am still on the rolls I do not receive the host.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 10:32:22 am by veggiewolf »
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Staff of Sekhmet

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Re: Christo-Paganism: Some Answered Questions
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2012, 03:15:24 pm »
Quote from: veggiewolf;58612
Honestly, I think you shouldn't receive Communion if you are not a baptised and actively-practicing Christian following the tenets of the church with which you associate.


Well unless the church with which you associate doesn't require you to entirely follow it's tenets. Like I said, I always level with the Priest of the parish when I move, partly over this very issue. As for baptized, I was baptized into the church at 17, and I have been a member since then, but not always an active member.

monsnoleedra

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Re: Christo-Paganism: Some Answered Questions
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2012, 03:40:34 pm »
Quote from: Staff of Sekhmet;58491
Well it is true there might be some who wouldn't accept me if they knew, but there are some who do know and accept me, including a few Priests. I always level with the Priest when I move to another parish, and generally I am told the same thing: a layperson does not have to accept all the creeds and such of the church, a Priest or a Bishop does. The position of the church on creeds, etc. is that they show what "the church teaches", not necessarily what a layperson must affirm. That is why the church accepts Unitarian Anglicans and others, even though its official teaching is Trinitarian.

 
All I can say is there is some severe Cherry Picking going on it this one.  A lay person does not have to adhere as strickly to the tenents and creed as closely as the clergy is supposed to, but i've never heard of them being not necessary nor observed.

The fact a few seem to accept you (though you have not proven they do not seek to convert or save you) does not give an endorsement of the whole church.  Nor even having been confirmed or baptised (you speak on this later in the thread).  To me, from the clergy I know, that only means they accept you've gone astray and seek to re-save your soul.

Just my opinon so it only matters to me but you exhabit many of the fears I see so often used to claim Christo-Pagan.  To fearful to fully release one and to fearful to fully embrace the other.  Yet cling desperatily and change historical and theological information to seek to justify and say why they are right.  Then raise anyone who may seem to support as conclusive proof its ok.

I recall a passage in the bible that says ".. Give unto Ceasar that which is Ceasars and unto God that which is God's!"  You seem to be trying to justify praising Ceasar by making him equal to the Christian God.  There by taking away from what is God's.

Yet in the end to appear to be playing both ends against the middle based upon the possibility that one or the other is the correct answer.  There for your right somewhat either way and can claim sanctuary from either if found to be wrong.

But in the end its your life and how you choose to live it and in that perspective I can do nothing other than support your right.

Staff of Sekhmet

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Re: Christo-Paganism: Some Answered Questions
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2012, 05:35:01 pm »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;58645

But in the end its your life and how you choose to live it and in that perspective I can do nothing other than support your right.

 
Thank you for that

mlr52

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Re: Christo-Paganism: Some Answered Questions
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2012, 10:15:17 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;58512
Yes, it is annoying. Protestant does not cover everything not Catholic. There are 4 major divisions of Christianity (in order from largest to smallest and Catholics are over 50% of the total):

Catholic
Protestant
(Eastern) Orthodox
Anglican

There are a number of smaller branches, but the only fairly major smaller branches are the Oriental Orthodox and the Church of the East.


My apologies, I stand corrected.  I give myself ten lashes with a wet noodle.
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Re: Christo-Paganism: Some Answered Questions
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2012, 10:38:22 pm »
Quote from: mlr52;58703
My apologies, I stand corrected.

Sorry, my post wasn't intended as a correction, but as an expansion of your post.
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mlr52

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Re: Christo-Paganism: Some Answered Questions
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2012, 11:18:05 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;58706
Sorry, my post wasn't intended as a correction, but as an expansion of your post.

 
No apology to be made.  I made an erroneous statement.  I was aware of the (Eastern) Orthodox, and Anglican before your post.  I just did not include them, which was wrong of me.
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Re: Christo-Paganism: Some Answered Questions
« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2012, 07:21:42 am »
Quote from: mlr52;58703
My apologies, I stand corrected.  I give myself ten lashes with a wet noodle.


How many more till you can be considered a Pastafarian initiate? :p
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Juniperberry

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Re: Christo-Paganism: Some Answered Questions
« Reply #42 on: June 06, 2012, 09:12:11 pm »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;58645


Just my opinon so it only matters to me but you exhibit many of the fears I see so often used to claim Christo-Pagan.  To fearful to fully release one and to fearful to fully embrace the other.  Yet cling desperatily and change historical and theological information to seek to justify and say why they are right.  Then raise anyone who may seem to support as conclusive proof its ok.


I find this a little simplistic, even though a year ago I would have completely agreed with you. I was as militant as I could be about stripping and separating and defining my worldviews and in chosing one over the other.

But lately...I've been flirting with christo-paganism. I've had experiences in the last year (which has been my darkest year) that would be silly to ignore. I didn't grow up in church but I had a personal idea of God that was meaningful and that, most of all, I associated with Christianity.

When I sobbing and slobbering all over myself one day and asking what I should do there was a knock at my door by Christian volunteers. On another day that I spent mulling over how conflicted I felt I dialed my mortgage company but instead reached a church I had never heard of. And then on a day when I was remembering a time when I was happy and content (and coincidentally still in touch with my personal God), I wrote a completely unrelated blog post which a random Christian replied to with "Don't be afraid to follow your bliss, and to face new realities."

And more to the point, I think, is this last of many examples: I made a Freyr statue which I set outside by the garden and it disappeared. So I tried a different approach and made a Creator's Star abundance hex sign and we have had the best harvest this year that we've ever had. I grew fifteen pounds of potatoes, we're canning and pickling squash and zucchini and just giving veggies away because it's been so ridiculous. Oh, one more: I've been working all year to understand the death of a friend and to find some connection to his spirit and to get some answers. Nada. I finally prayed to God and asked to know where friend was, even in a dream (which I haven't been doing much of lately), and most of all, to let me remember.  That night I dreamed of his mother, and I followed her around like a quiet shadow as she did everyday things. And I know where my friend is now.

Why would I ignore what's working? Isn't that contrary to the pagan spirit? Why would I ignore all of this influence in my life that I identify as God because of some ridiculous idea that I can only be this or that? I still believe in land spirits, I still venerate my ancestors, I still craft items of power (hex signs) and I still look for omens and signs. I've been spending tons of time exploring the history of Christianity and it's the roots of folklore within it and you know what? There isn't one denomination of Christianity that is pure. Even mass isn't an originally Catholic practice.  I can't be untrue to It, because nothing is true to It.

We have the (controversially) polytheistic Mormons, the Lutherans, the Baptists, the Catholics, and on and on to include the Quakers, who believed that no one man could be a priest, but that all men and women were priests, with their own personal connection to this being/spirit/idea that we call God. And that God comes to us in ways meant for us.

So, yeah, an authority can tell us what believing in God can mean- and only mean- to us, and we can acquiesce to that even here in our alternatively religious message boards, or we can... not. It seems counter-intuitive to say pick one and only one, make it fit into a square hole and never redesign it because there is no slot for that. Make a slot!

Christo-pagan is an unfortunate label, and there should probably be a new way to define it. But that's entirely different than telling people that they aren't allowed to experience what they are experiencing. The essence of paganism isn't orthodoxy or adherence to a scripture, it's Experiential belief and a tangible partnership with the spirits.  But to deny those experiences and stick to a blind and purely conceptual loyalty just because (fear, uncertainity, maybe?) is, ironically, what should be called "Christian" pagan more than anything else.

Sorry for the rant. I really need to get that off my chest. If I hit submit, this will be the first time I cemented this feeling that's been growing for several months, and it'll be the final nail in the coffin of my religious identity. :o

(eta: and I did...)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 09:12:47 pm by Juniperberry »
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mlr52

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Re: Christo-Paganism: Some Answered Questions
« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2012, 11:09:00 pm »
Quote from: Chatelaine;58749
How many more till you can be considered a Pastafarian initiate? :p

 
I will have to find a Pastafarian to ask.  Otherwise I would be making it up as I go.
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monsnoleedra

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Re: Christo-Paganism: Some Answered Questions
« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2012, 12:40:58 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;58879
I find this a little simplistic, even though a year ago I would have completely agreed with you. I was as militant as I could be about stripping and separating and defining my worldviews and in chosing one over the other.

But even your argument endorses my position.  You've listed a number of items that seem to fall beneath a pagan concept yet none of them are requirements nor identifiers of anything pagan.  You've used the argument that if it works then it must be ok.  Yet by default that same concept applies in any situation where you may desire something, find it not meant to be but go to an alternative and get it and think that is right.

Quote
We have the (controversially) polytheistic Mormons, the Lutherans, the Baptists, the Catholics, and on and on to include the Quakers, who believed that no one man could be a priest, but that all men and women were priests, with their own personal connection to this being/spirit/idea that we call God. And that God comes to us in ways meant for us.

Not sure where you got this one from.  The baptist do not believe just anyone can be or is a priest but that one must be ordained.  Catholic for sure believe that and the Lutherans I know also fall into the.  Even the methodist I've met would fall into the same catergory.  Very few of them believe all were priests / priestess and held thier own personal connection to God.  That's not to say that most do not believe one may not speak of thier religious experiences.   At best that is more of a New Age slant on things for even those who follow Wicca held that one was a priest / priestess only after undergoing so much training and initiation to discover the mystical and dogmatic facets of their religion and its practices.

Quote
And more to the point, I think, is this last of many examples: I made a Freyr statue which I set outside by the garden and it disappeared. So I tried a different approach and made a Creator's Star abundance hex sign and we have had the best harvest this year that we've ever had. I grew fifteen pounds of potatoes, we're canning and pickling squash and zucchini and just giving veggies away because it's been so ridiculous. Oh, one more: I've been working all year to understand the death of a friend and to find some connection to his spirit and to get some answers. Nada. I finally prayed to God and asked to know where friend was, even in a dream (which I haven't been doing much of lately), and most of all, to let me remember. That night I dreamed of his mother, and I followed her around like a quiet shadow as she did everyday things. And I know where my friend is now.

Bolded mine.

All that tells me is your didn't believe it to begin with and whom ever you were praying to probably said why answer you don't believe in them anyway.  As for the hex and such again that by itself does not make one a pagan nor is it needed to make one a pagan.  Pow Wow and many other folkish practices also use folk magics or scripture magics and do not claim to be pagan either.  No more so than to practice ceremonial or high level magics based upon earlier Christian designs by itself makes one a pagan.  Especially in the sense of Pagan being a religious practice vice simply a way of life or skill set.

Quote
Christo-pagan is an unfortunate label, and there should probably be a new way to define it. But that's entirely different than telling people that they aren't allowed to experience what they are experiencing. The essence of paganism isn't orthodoxy or adherence to a scripture, it's Experiential belief and a tangible partnership with the spirits. But to deny those experiences and stick to a blind and purely conceptual loyalty just because (fear, uncertainity, maybe?) is, ironically, what should be called "Christian" pagan more than anything else.

I'd disagree that the essence of Paganism is expermential belief and partnership.  New age practice and application, perhaps, seeing white light and happy happy joyful joyful for certain.  I don't think i've ever encountered anyone who would claim their beliefs and spiritual practices were expermential, and seldom any one who would claim they have a partnership with thier gods / goddesses.

Nor does the recognization and association with "spirits" define a pathway as Pagan or any other religious practice.  They (spiriti recognization) maybe componet facets that might be found but never are they to my knowledge an requirement.  More often seen as a facet of an Animis worldview but again not a requirement to be Pagan as a religion or pagan as a way of life.  Though many try to define pagan as an umbrella term that one can just insert anything they desire and make it so because they desire it.

But no one has said they can't experience thier spirituality anyway they desire or believe.  No one has even said they can't try to pigeon hole any and everything they cherry pick as part of thier belief and apply it.

But in the end in my opinion to claim Christo-Pagan is still the refusal to fully embrace either pathway and cling to the cherry picked items while they tend to change or ignore the less desired ones.  To try and change a practices identity to suit their indecession and fears vice fully embracing one and accepting the positive with the negative.

If you pray to the Christian God then embrace it and claim yourself a Christian.  People have been doing that for ages which is the reason their are so many branches of Christianity today.  Some survive, some die and some are killed off but they elected a pathway and embraced it.  They didn't take one side when it was convient then the other when it was not convient for them.

In many ways it reminds me of a scene from the movie KINGDOM OF HEAVEN when the head cleric says convert to Islam and repent later.  Take no stand and hold to that belief simply claim what feels right at the moment or most useful in that situation.

For me I am Pagan in the sense I pray to, honor and worship only Hekate / Hecate, Artemis, Bast, Pahket, Sekor and the Huntsman.  When I have a need I call upon them or one in particular if they hold more sway over that area.  I do not call upon anyone else based upon the concept they might perform for me when my own divinities have either ignored my prayer / request or turned it down.

To me doing such would be like asking for a loan and having it refused for my own good then going to a loan shark to get it.  Sure I get it but I pay a higher price and seldom is it working out for my own good.  Granted the immediate reward may seem to make it worth while but in the end it never is worth the price and the payback it requires.
 
But then again I also do not see one having a expermential belief or partnership with the Christian God if they are Christians.  I may identify them by other means or names but never expermental or partnership.  But then as I stated i'd not use that for those who follow a Pagan pathway either, seekers perhaps but that is based upon how I define and understand what it means to be dedicated, commited and bound to.

As far as choosing one over the other, I do not have that issue.  I simply am sworn to and honor those gods / goddess and try to live my life as I think proper and thier revelations show me or guide me.  I do not have alternative gods / goddesses or God I call upon when they do not answer or give me what I think I desire.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 12:46:09 am by monsnoleedra »

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