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Author Topic: Being a Pagan without believing in Pagan deities  (Read 16430 times)

Redfaery

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Re: Being a Pagan without believing in Pagan deities
« Reply #75 on: December 23, 2014, 05:24:39 pm »
Quote from: carillion;168104
And? How is this germane to the present conversation? Are you suggesting that the concept of 'person' is *not* being used to reference 'human' ? In which case, why use the word 'person'?  A tree is a tree. By definition it is 'non-human'. By what definition is it a person?
More importantly, why *should* it be?

I'm not asking you to speak for neo-animists, by the way.
Yeah. I get it. We animists are superstitious idiots or something like that.

A person can be something other than human if the traits attributable to a person are found in something that happens to not be a homo sapien. It's really not hard to understand.

You might not believe that yourself. You can even make arguments about why orangutans, trees, and deities are not people...in your opinion and your opinion only. But if you start stating any of that as fact, you will quickly start sounding like you are trashing the beliefs of a number of members on this forum. Including me.
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

carillion

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Re: Being a Pagan without believing in Pagan deities
« Reply #76 on: December 23, 2014, 08:25:54 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;168108
Yeah. I get it. We animists are superstitious idiots or something like that..

A person can be something other than human if the traits attributable to a person are found in something that happens to not be a homo sapien. It's really not hard to understand.

You might not believe that yourself. You can even make arguments about why orangutans, trees, and deities are not people...in your opinion and your opinion only. But if you start stating any of that as fact, you will quickly start sounding like you are trashing the beliefs of a number of members on this forum. Including me.

"Yeah. I get it. We animists are superstitious idiots or something like that."

Speak for yourself.  Though I find it odd that you feel the need to denigrate yourself like that.

"A person can be something other than human if the traits attributable to a person are found in something that happens to not be a homo sapien. It's really not hard to understand."

Humans share sixty percent of their DNA with banana plants. Doesn't make a banana a human , never will. Or maybe we're eating the banana person's fingers? :) . I think people project human characteristics on to other sentient and non-sentient beings/objects. The product of that projection does not change the inherent nature of what they are projecting on to.

For myself, I've never found it necessary to project human traits on non-human creations , they are wonderous as they are without being reduced to being called a 'person'. If people find it necessary to 'confer'  personhood on things around them in order to relate to them or respect them, fine. I just don't see the need.

A tree is a tree and that *is* a fact, it's not just my opinion. I feel quite confortable in stating that fact. I fail to see how stating that would 'trash' anybody's belief systems.

 I don't believe in the existence of deities so it is totally irrelvant to me how people wish to see them. And given their invisable nature, it doesn't much matter how people choose to imagine them . I don't have a dog in that race.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2014, 08:27:41 pm by carillion »

Juniperberry

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Re: Being a Pagan without believing in Pagan deities
« Reply #77 on: December 23, 2014, 09:07:09 pm »
Quote from: carillion;168118


I don't believe in the existence of deities so it is totally irrelevant to me how people wish to see them.

I definitely think you're well within your rights to first nit-pick the word personhood in the context of a thread about atheistic paganism and second, find the application of it problematic considering that the Wikipedia page posted earlier states that it is indeed controversial and debated in philosophy and law, in no way a universally accepted concept, and that it differs in cultures and religion. You've brought up some interesting ideas that I'd like to explore more.

But mainly I'm curious about this statement (in a good way!):

Quote from: carillion;168068
. But then rituals often contain transformational elements which introduce the concept of intermediaries. What form they may take will again be determined by the ritual . But that's not what is being discussed here as far as I can tell.

I'd like to hear more about how you think ritual has the potential to transform our relationship with....trees, etc. (I'm not sure which word to use for your beliefs? Energy? Spiritual essences?) Not sure what questions to ask, though.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2014, 09:07:35 pm by Juniperberry »
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

ainellewellyn

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Re: Being a Pagan without believing in Pagan deities
« Reply #78 on: December 24, 2014, 12:44:58 am »
Quote from: Redfaery;168102
Gods are people. But they are not human.

 
Except when they are.

Redfaery

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Re: Being a Pagan without believing in Pagan deities
« Reply #79 on: December 24, 2014, 09:20:49 am »
Quote from: ainellewellyn;168129
Except when they are.

 
LOL. That's true! :eek:
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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