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Author Topic: Any pop culture pagans here?  (Read 9189 times)

Naomi J

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Re: Any pop culture pagans here?
« Reply #60 on: November 24, 2015, 07:59:29 am »
Quote from: RandallS;182716
There's a apparently a motor in the back of my head going "but...but...but...but...but..." as my little brain can't really imagine a version of the story where the White Witch wasn't a villain, but am strangely intrigued by the idea anyway.

 
It helps if you're a Gnostic and see the snake in the Garden of Eden, not as the devil, but as Sophia, bringer of wisdom to humanity.

And you kind of have to imagine that Aslan was the villain...!
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Juniperberry

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Re: Any pop culture pagans here?
« Reply #61 on: November 24, 2015, 10:22:55 am »
Quote from: RandallS;182716
There's a apparently a motor in the back of my head going "but...but...but...but...but..." as my little brain can't really imagine a version of the story where the White Witch wasn't a villain, but am strangely intrigued by the idea anyway.

 
Right? The White Witch *terrified* me as a kid.

But the idea of it reminds me of Grendel's mother apparently representing the shift from temperamental and capricious pagan earth goddesses to Christian conversion.
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Re: Any pop culture pagans here?
« Reply #62 on: November 24, 2015, 10:38:44 am »
Quote from: Naomi J;182717
And you kind of have to imagine that Aslan was the villain...!

 
I've been deep in some deconstructions of Narnia, on and off, when they get posted, and there's a certain amount of "... yep!" there, because of Lewis's horrible fridge logic.

One of the things that strikes me as inadequately explored in the canon is the Witch's declaration in tLtW&tW that she was the Emperor's Executioner.  What does that mean?!  What is the underlying cosmology, the structure, what does that say about the world?

Fertile ground for exploration.
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Holdasown

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Re: Any pop culture pagans here?
« Reply #63 on: November 24, 2015, 11:27:34 am »
Quote from: Aubren;182349
I'm looking for pop-culture pagans here I can talk to.
Tumblr has the biggest community, but it seems more Pop-Culture Magic with a PCP founding. Plus, there's a "scattered" feel to it, probably due to all the online harassment.
And all of the "voices of reason" seem to be teenagers who act immaturely. Or rather, they try to act mature, but I don't think they're mature because I can see gaps. And I don't want to be part of a community where the people everyone turns to seem mentally younger than me- especially in a space where that's not required.

So yeah, the atmosphere is a lot calmer here. Any teens or adults that are PCP? What media do you incorporate into your religion?

I've done more MLP than anything, but it's weird- I'm not a part of the fandom anymore, but I still feel somewhat religiously inclined to it.
I've thought about incorporating Steven Universe pcm & maybe pcp.
Most recently, I've taken serious consideration into working with a Gravity Fall's character for the sake of spiritual development.
GF fans, you get no prizes for guesses XD


I am more a pop culture witch than pagan. I use rock songs in my spell work.

Faemon

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Re: Any pop culture pagans here?
« Reply #64 on: November 24, 2015, 12:20:16 pm »
Quote from: Naomi J;182707
I work with Jadis, the White Witch from Narnia. Well... "work with" is an overstatement, since IME she's willing to accept distant veneration but not really much else. I started because a passing comment made me realize how connected she is to the myths of winter crones and Snow Queens in folklore. I don't experience her as deeply villainous - my approach to Narnia is that CS Lewis got most of the story wrong! - but more as a bringer of distant wisdom and understanding of power (especially in a self-sovereignty way).


I thought Roland Barthes' "Death of the Author" and Michel Foucault's "What is An Author?" would be worth mentioning at this point (because what those two describe of the relationship between audience and artwork might be applicable to some paganization methods of pop culture.)

Quote from: Naomi J;182717
It helps if you're a Gnostic and see the snake in the Garden of Eden, not as the devil, but as Sophia, bringer of wisdom to humanity. And you kind of have to imagine that Aslan was the villain...!

 
Then as the Chronicles of Narnia is an allegory or adaptation of the Christian Bible, the Gnostic interpretation transfers (or imbues itself) easily to the Narnian version.

I would also affirm that the particular features of an iteration do generate significance particular to the iteration, sorry for the redundancy, but in this case maybe that Lewis perhaps consolidated a European Christianity? (What with the "northern witches" and winter symbolism, the origins of Jadis being in Charn with the giants.) Whereas text analysis of the Christian Bible--the way I'd been nudged to study it, at least--frequently hearkens back to (necessarily speaking broadly) life in the region and time of that text's origin?

What I'm thinking is that...if I met Jadis contextualized spiritually, then it might not feel exactly right to refer to her as Lilith or Sophia or a yuki-onna just so that more people are more likely to take this seriously enough to open up a discussion about a value or issue implicated therein. There would be something important in her Jadis-ness. At the same time, Lewis' canon isn't the canon, but the fanon or headcanon becomes the canon (that is, becomes the better touchpoint or contextual sphere for Jadis as a religious figure.)
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Naomi J

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Re: Any pop culture pagans here?
« Reply #65 on: November 24, 2015, 01:54:37 pm »
Quote from: Faemon;182733
I thought Roland Barthes' "Death of the Author" and Michel Foucault's "What is An Author?" would be worth mentioning at this point (because what those two describe of the relationship between audience and artwork might be applicable to some paganization methods of pop culture.)


I like both Barthes and Foucault very much, but... there seems to be a cultural limit of where we can take stories and still have them accepted as *the same story*, you know? Which is where I sometimes wonder whether I've gone somewhere else. Nonetheless, being inspired by a fictional universe is still PCP I guess.

Quote
Then as the Chronicles of Narnia is an allegory or adaptation of the Christian Bible, the Gnostic interpretation transfers (or imbues itself) easily to the Narnian version


Yes, that definitely helps it work as an interpretation. As does looking at how Lewis draws aspects of Eve, Lilith, Lucifer and various other Christian, Jewish and post-Christian figures into the Witch character. But I wouldn't say Gnostic Christianity transfers *easily* into Narnia. There are lots of places where I have to do mental gymnastics. Because she's not Sophia. There are just a lot of parallels there.

Part of the reason it's not easy is that Lewis's Christianity was a long, long way from Gnosticism. You can't look at Lewis's era of Christianities and think he was the same as the Gnostics. His influence from Calvinism, for example, is incredibly difficult to reconcile with Christian Gnosticism. (Which is where Kiya's point about the Witch being 'the Emperor's Executioner' is interesting. Narnia sets everything up, predestined, as Lewis seemed to think God had with the Christian story.)

Quote
I would also affirm that the particular features of an iteration do generate significance particular to the iteration, sorry for the redundancy, but in this case maybe that Lewis perhaps consolidated a European Christianity? (What with the "northern witches" and winter symbolism, the origins of Jadis being in Charn with the giants.) Whereas text analysis of the Christian Bible--the way I'd been nudged to study it, at least--frequently hearkens back to (necessarily speaking broadly) life in the region and time of that text's origin?


So, Lewis was a Medievalist, and you can tell that he knew his myth and folklore. I don't think his Christianity was European, specifically, so much as the images and myths he drew for his fiction included Anglo-Saxon and British images. This is part of why you can't look at Narnia as direct analogy with the Bible. There are Greek gods in the Narnia books, alongside winter queens and giants. (I think I'm recalling right that Tolkein found Lewis's use of myth a bit sloppy.)

The Witch isn't a Christian figure. Neither is she an Anglo-Saxon figure, but she draws influences from European folklore. This, for me, is why working with her is more interesting than, say, working with Eve (who's often considered a Gnostic saint). Jadis's syncretic mythical context goes beyond being mere Christian allergory. It becomes something new - and that's what makes it interesting pop culture Paganism to me.

Quote
What I'm thinking is that...if I met Jadis contextualized spiritually, then it might not feel exactly right to refer to her as Lilith or Sophia or a yuki-onna just so that more people are more likely to take this seriously enough to open up a discussion about a value or issue implicated therein. There would be something important in her Jadis-ness. At the same time, Lewis' canon isn't the canon, but the fanon or headcanon becomes the canon (that is, becomes the better touchpoint or contextual sphere for Jadis as a religious figure.)

 
Yeah - see above for how she's not Sophia. (I like Sophia - although in true Gnostic style, I find her very distant.) Or Lilith - though Lewis made sure to put Lilith in her family tree. The White Witch's 'Jadis-ness' is exactly the reason I find it more meaningful to work with her (to the vague extent that I do) within a Narnian mythical context.

And she's a seasonal figure, of course, so I start thinking about her more around this time of year!
"We're all stories, in the end. Make it a good one, eh?"
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Naomi J

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Re: Any pop culture pagans here?
« Reply #66 on: November 24, 2015, 02:00:45 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;182727
I've been deep in some deconstructions of Narnia, on and off, when they get posted, and there's a certain amount of "... yep!" there, because of Lewis's horrible fridge logic.

One of the things that strikes me as inadequately explored in the canon is the Witch's declaration in tLtW&tW that she was the Emperor's Executioner.  What does that mean?!  What is the underlying cosmology, the structure, what does that say about the world?

Fertile ground for exploration.

 
That's one of a few things that I find really fascinating about Jadis - the whole background of her 'right' to traitors, the theological concepts of Deep Magic and Deeper Magic, her role in the great story that's really all about Aslan no don't look behind that curtain, and so on.
"We're all stories, in the end. Make it a good one, eh?"
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Emma Eldritch

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Re: Any pop culture pagans here?
« Reply #67 on: November 24, 2015, 11:26:28 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;182716
There's a apparently a motor in the back of my head going "but...but...but...but...but..." as my little brain can't really imagine a version of the story where the White Witch wasn't a villain, but am strangely intrigued by the idea anyway.

 
I have the opposite problem - I have always had a hard time seeing her as the bad guy. I mean, yeah, when I was a kid I was sad that it looked like the lion was gonna die, but the White Witch was so much cooler.

Naomi, you are blowing my mind a little. Your interpretation is crazy well thought out!

Juniperberry

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Re: Any pop culture pagans here?
« Reply #68 on: November 24, 2015, 11:27:35 pm »
Quote from: Mama Fortuna;182755
I have the opposite problem - I have always had a hard time seeing her as the bad guy. I mean, yeah, when I was a kid I was sad that it looked like the lion was gonna die, but the White Witch was so much cooler.


Pun intended? :)
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Emma Eldritch

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Re: Any pop culture pagans here?
« Reply #69 on: November 24, 2015, 11:47:48 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;182756
Pun intended? :)

 
Ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy! XD

Naomi J

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Re: Any pop culture pagans here?
« Reply #70 on: November 25, 2015, 01:57:59 am »
Quote from: Mama Fortuna;182755
I have the opposite problem - I have always had a hard time seeing her as the bad guy. I mean, yeah, when I was a kid I was sad that it looked like the lion was gonna die, but the White Witch was so much cooler.

Naomi, you are blowing my mind a little. Your interpretation is crazy well thought out!

 
Heh. I think too much. I do theologies. :P

And she is just so much more interesting than Aslan!
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Faemon

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Re: Any pop culture pagans here?
« Reply #71 on: November 25, 2015, 10:48:48 am »
Quote from: Naomi J;182735
there seems to be a cultural limit of where we can take stories and still have them accepted as *the same story*, you know? Which is where I sometimes wonder whether I've gone somewhere else. Nonetheless, being inspired by a fictional universe is still PCP I guess.

 
I would guess the same. Pop Culture Paganism might not be a catch-all term, but it seems to me to catch a lot. Upthread, someone suggested starting a group about this, but I predict that being able to keep up any discussion in that group would depend a lot on (1) people knowing the source material, so, for instance I haven't weighed in on Lucy Heartfilia or GF or SU or OtGW here because I don't know them, or WtNV because I like it but don't personally feel called to much beyond that; and (2) explaining individual approaches to (or interpretations of) the source material, which would take a lot of explaining before someone else can get on the same wavelength and contribute to the discussion, even if the reader/s know the source material. It still would be (has been) interesting to read about that, but maybe not as interesting to write about than it would be to believe/practice/live without explaining to anybody.

I can only hope that wouldn't leave a PCP group practically too fractured or unfocused to keep up any discussion. On the other hand, I'm thinking that of course there would still be a lot of crossover or commonality found in discussions of PCP applicability, impact, values, and structures (and maybe venting in an appropriate space about pagans or polytheists who vent about pop culture paganism like well excuuuse me for living!)
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 10:51:59 am by Faemon »
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Aubren

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Re: Any pop culture pagans here?
« Reply #72 on: November 26, 2015, 01:13:48 am »
Quote from: Mama Fortuna;182700

There's probably a few dozen different suggestions for cleansing on this board. I think Jenett's website probably has a bunch too -  http://gleewood.org/seeking/practices/ has some links, looks like.

Oh, and thread drift is natural here and happens a lot. So never worry about that.

Double thanks!

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Aubren

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Re: Any pop culture pagans here?
« Reply #73 on: November 26, 2015, 02:10:04 am »
Quote from: RandallS;182716
There's a apparently a motor in the back of my head going "but...but...but...but...but..." as my little brain can't really imagine a version of the story where the White Witch wasn't a villain, but am strangely intrigued by the idea anyway.

 
I am 100% certain that there's a fanfiction of this. I just don't know where.
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Aubren

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Re: Any pop culture pagans here?
« Reply #74 on: November 26, 2015, 03:42:19 am »
Quote from: Faemon;182772
I would guess the same. Pop Culture Paganism might not be a catch-all term, but it seems to me to catch a lot. Upthread, someone suggested starting a group about this, but I predict that being able to keep up any discussion in that group would depend a lot on (1) people knowing the source material, so, for instance I haven't weighed in on Lucy Heartfilia or GF or SU or OtGW here because I don't know them, or WtNV because I like it but don't personally feel called to much beyond that; and (2) explaining individual approaches to (or interpretations of) the source material, which would take a lot of explaining before someone else can get on the same wavelength and contribute to the discussion, even if the reader/s know the source material. It still would be (has been) interesting to read about that, but maybe not as interesting to write about than it would be to believe/practice/live without explaining to anybody.  


Still new to the area, and I don't recall that post. If I'm completely missing the concept of what we're talking about, I'm sorry. It sounds like Ecauldron has groups for certain religions.
If not the case, ignore everything I'm saying: scroll past, nothing to see here.



I think that having a PCP group would be a little like having a continent-pantheon group or a group for eclectic polytheists.
Or just having a group of a pagans together from many different religious practices *coughs in hand*.

With all groups, you're going to have to explain your practice to each other. A druid doesn't necessarily know what's going on in romuva, the eclectic is self-explanitory and also applies someehar to what we do here.

In spite of the explanations and differences, you can still have people following along.
There are similarities within each group/individual that a general thread will apply to most (but not all) individuals. Sure, there'll be specific conversations some people can't follow along. But there'll be threads where some will, and that's good.

Quote

I can only hope that wouldn't leave a PCP group practically too fractured or unfocused to keep up any discussion. On the other hand, I'm thinking that of course there would still be a lot of crossover or commonality found in discussions of PCP applicability, impact, values, and structures (and maybe venting in an appropriate space about pagans or polytheists who vent about pop culture paganism like well excuuuse me for living!)


If you can give everyone at least one other person who incorporates one of the practices they share (even if rather different--say, an Aslan honorer and an Ice Witch venerator) then things should work out fine. Perhaps a little chaotic, but still workable.

And even better if it works in a spider-web fashion. So, Aslan!honorer includes working with gryffindor into their practice, which connects with a Harry Potter witch, which connects to a non-including HP fan who works with Elsa, which leads to similarities in practice /personality of entity with the Ice-Witch venerator.

Other practices apply as well. As I mentioned before, a part of the reason why I'm ignoring Tumblr's community is because it's so heavily PCM.

Yeah, I could arrange to find other Gravity Falls pagans on tumblr. But if they're all using more magic than character-focus, and they're all avoiding Bill Cipher like some Heathens to Loki, then it's a little...unwelcoming.

I could still talk to them, but I'm gonna want some people who work like me in other areas.

(I'm sensing a personality trait I didn't notice until now. *Compares this with need to have protection before working with Bill*)

So it's also important to find people with different practices but similar construction. So I'd be happy to talk to another non-magic PCP who works with/honors/worships the characters, even if it's from a show that I don't know.

They're are plenty enough PCM users here to at least start a PCM group, right?


 
Quote
...(and maybe venting in an appropriate space about pagans or polytheists who vent about pop culture paganism like well excuuuse me for living!)


Also, I think Tumblr's community has been severely injured by the criticism they got. Apparently they got hit by x amount of months of intense harrassment? I wasn't in the community at that time, so I'm just sort of looking at the wreakage.  They need to clean up the disaster-area before I'm willing to move in, another reason why I approve a group here, as it'd be a new place and with a clean slate.
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