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Author Topic: All Pagans Should Celebrate the Wheel of the Year Regardless of specific Religion?  (Read 16545 times)

Castus

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Quote from: Maps;73580
Aaaand you're gonna get dinged for deciding who takes their religion seriously and who doesn't.


I'm expecting that, actually. It's not precisely how I meant to phrase it, and it doesn't precisely convey the point I was trying to make, but I really cannot think of a way to describe my meaning by categorising the holidays as 'froofy' with any higher degree of accuracy. Maybe I'm just that inept, I don't know and I'm not sure I'm even awake enough to care.

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I try not to make blanket statements about who those people might be based on age and the like.

I didn't make a blanket statement. I admitted that my thoughts on the subject were coloured by past experiences with Wiccans, most of whom were precisely of that 'ghastly' calibre I described, and tried to make it clear that I do not view all Wiccans in such a negative light. Evidently I failed.

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There's a different between ignorance and militant ignorance.

Yes indeed there is.
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Jabberwocky

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Quote from: nellethiel;73511

ANYWAY, what I'm trying to say is: I thought that club's system was an extraordinarily wonderful experince of being in an envrionemnt where I could be myself, with my own brand of Paganism, and still get to easily know other Pagans in community events and settings that just so happened to fall on the Wheel holidays and be sort of related to them. It is perhaps not what the writer of the original message to RandallS fully had in mind, but I think it kind of captures the idea that, if community IS desired (and I understand that it isn't, not by every Pagan, and that's totally understandable and fine) it's sometimes easier to come together around holidays...and because of the diversity and the sheer number of Pagan holidays, sometimes we have to settle for attending something based on someone else's path if we want to even meet or get to know some other Pagans.


I certainly get what you're saying.  For myself, I have no problem attending and participating in other's paths celebrations and rituals.  I've been involved in several public Wiccan rituals.  But the context was different.  There was no claim to it being anything other than a Wiccan ritual (with only a few small concessions to non-Wiccans in terms of belief).  And it was at a gathering that was Wiccan organised and was quite clearly a social gathering of Wiccans and their friends.  So I was mostly there because I got on with the organisers on a social level.

That's not the issue for me with this proposal.  The issue is proposing that everyone adopt Neo-Wiccan practise for the sake of "unity" and "community".

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I guess the ideal for an inclusive group like that would be not to use holidays at all, in the end. But who knows!


I'm not convinced that would make an interfaith group truly inclusive either; I suspect trying for that may be a bit of a pipe dream.

To give another personal example,

I was involved in a time for a (now sadly defunct) moot known affectionately as the "shady moot".  Mostly called because the vast majority of those who attended were a little bit dodgy.  It was a pretty mixed group of occultists and pagans, the only unifying thing in terms of paths was that it attracted the people who didn't fit comfortably in any of the local path specific pagan/occultist groups.  So, it was genuinely interfaith in that sense.

However, it took place in the local rock pub, with a strong drinking culture around it.  Some of the main events we put on were debates on various issues.  People were generally quite cynical and it was considered fine to pick holes in each others practises and beliefs.  (We saw it as a way of strengthening them, not as an insult).

Despite the fact that we didn't celebrate any holidays or participate in rituals as a group, I'm pretty sure we were no more inclusive then your group.  The very culture of the group will have put off at least as many people as it attracted.

Which is why I see 'inclusivity' as something not really worth striving for.  My ideal situation instead, would be one where everyone has a community that suits them.  Sadly, we're not in that situation, but I think it's more workable then expecting every community to suit everybody.
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yewberry

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Quote from: Jabberwocky;73589
Which is why I see 'inclusivity' as something not really worth striving for.


It's worthy (and even laudable)...just so rarely possible (especially for any reasonable length of time) as to be impractical in most situations.

Brina

MattyG

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Quote from: monsnoleedra;69048
It's easy to claim today that its the white person holding the PoC down but it seems from things such as ebonics its thier own actions doing them in.  The current issues in Louisanna and the racial content sure vanished once it was discovered that the people in power where black themselves.

This was posted a while ago, but I feel the need to comment on it. Why should the African American community have to give up ebonics and their slang? It's a part of their language and a part of their culture. You're essentially saying that it's their fault for not conforming to the dominant, primarily white values. I have the same problem with people who treat Southerners poorly when they hear their accents. I live in a part of California where a large number of people are descended from dust-bowl era Oklahomans. A lot of people here speak with Southern accents, live in trailers, do manual labor for a living, and enjoy shooting big guns. And you know what, a lot of them are very intelligent, very kind, and all-together worthwhile human beings. You shouldn't have to act as if you're ashamed of your cultural, economic, or geographic background, because that shouldn't affect your value as a human being.

I was an English major in college, and I'm fairly sensitive toward people trying to enforce similarity of language. When the French invaded England, they frowned upon people who spoke Old English, and also against literature created in the English language. In the 1700s (I believe), academics wanted to discredit the "commoners," so they introduced useless Latin rules into the language like "Don't split infinitives," or "Don't end sentences with prepositions." Those rules really don't make sense in our linguistic context, and they don't create a more descriptive or precise language. They were inserted specifically to discriminate against the uneducated, working classes.

Long story short, expecting that people should have to give up their language or culture in order to gain respect is ultimately racist and/or classiest, and blaming them for not conforming to the white, majority image is completely disrespectful.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 01:10:11 am by MattyG »

nellethiel

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Quote from: Jabberwocky;73589
That's not the issue for me with this proposal.  The issue is proposing that everyone adopt Neo-Wiccan practise for the sake of "unity" and "community".


That's the part I don't agree with either. I think community can be a very good thing, but it shouldn't be reached by everyone becoming the same thing altogether. Sharing in similar experiences works (for me), but everyone being the same religion or something doesn't make sense, and is just plain wrong.

Quote from: Jabberwocky;73589
Which is why I see 'inclusivity' as something not really worth striving for.  My ideal situation instead, would be one where everyone has a community that suits them.  Sadly, we're not in that situation, but I think it's more workable then expecting every community to suit everybody.


Unfortunately, in this day and age, like you said, we don't yet have anything close to a system where there could be communities for each and every one of our various Pagan paths, in all of the various cities and places that we live in. And I don't necessarily think the opposite - a single community to suit all - is the right way to go either...that's just plain impractical and unfair. For me, it's more about the fact that sometimes the only "sense" of community I ever seem to get - until a better system, as you described, develops - is from the other Pagans/religious folk around me...here, on TC, for example, or in other interfaith groups, etc. The whole point of everything I wrote was basically to say that: I'm ok with that, for now. Not everyone has to be, and not everyone will be, and it's still a frustrating situation as a whole...but my personal experience trying to make an interfaith community work for me was a good one, and I'm simply glad that it worked out as well as it did for the time that I was there. That's all ^^;;
“I have made bright Ma’at which Ra loves, I know that He lives by it; it is my bread too; I eat of its brightness.” (Jeremy Naydler, Temple of the Cosmos)
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FollowerofOdin

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Quote from: RandallS;67394
Long time members of TC known that any discussion of "Pagan Unity" can quickly become a major thread with a lot of "hostility" here, so I am sort of reluctant to bring this up here, but the idea is at least interesting (note: "interesting" does not necessarily mean "good").

I received feedback on our web site asking me why we do not stress the Wheel of the Year more as while the wheel is a property of Wicca and Wicca-like religions more than Pagan religions in general, the public tends so associate the Wheel of the Year with Paganism. The author of this note believes that all Pagans should celebrate the eight Wheel holidays in some way even if they are not a part of their specific Pagan path -- just as many Christians celebrate secular cultural holidays like Memorial Day, Independence Day, Thanksgiving, etc. religiously even though they are not truly holy days in Christianity. Doing so would give Pagans more of a common culture and would be more visible to the general public than each group only doing their religion's own thing.

What you you think?

I'm very skeptical, but I figured it would make a good discussion.

 
I'm skeptical as well because no one wants to do things the same as the other. You will end up having arrows shot at you.

Phouka

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Quote from: RandallS;67394
Long time members of TC known that any discussion of "Pagan Unity" can quickly become a major thread with a lot of "hostility" here, so I am sort of reluctant to bring this up here, but the idea is at least interesting (note: "interesting" does not necessarily mean "good").

I received feedback on our web site asking me why we do not stress the Wheel of the Year more as while the wheel is a property of Wicca and Wicca-like religions more than Pagan religions in general, the public tends so associate the Wheel of the Year with Paganism. The author of this note believes that all Pagans should celebrate the eight Wheel holidays in some way even if they are not a part of their specific Pagan path -- just as many Christians celebrate secular cultural holidays like Memorial Day, Independence Day, Thanksgiving, etc. religiously even though they are not truly holy days in Christianity. Doing so would give Pagans more of a common culture and would be more visible to the general public than each group only doing their religion's own thing.

What you you think?

I'm very skeptical, but I figured it would make a good discussion.


I'm very skeptical too as the Wheel of the Year is supposed to be a construct from many sources.  If my understanding of the Wheel is correct, these days celebrate specific events from different cultures already.

Yule from Heathenry, Beltaine from Celtic, Lammas from Christianity (or Lunasagh from Celtic).

It seems to me to be somewhat rude to take someone else's religious idea and make it cultural so that everyone will participate. It dilutes the meaning of the spiritual experience. Sort of how Christmas (Christ's Mass) has gone from a very religious and spiritual celebration to the commercial craziness it is today.

Phouka

yewberry

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Quote from: FollowerofOdin;90182
I'm skeptical as well because no one wants to do things the same as the other. You will end up having arrows shot at you.


What?

Brina

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Quote from: yewberry;90371
What?

Brina

 
I was being figurative.

MadZealot

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Quote from: FollowerofOdin;90903
I was being figurative.


Whew!  Because real arrows hurt.
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

Okay. Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets.

yewberry

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Quote from: MadZealot;90942
Whew!  Because real arrows hurt.


Pain, yes.  Clarification, no.

Brina

FollowerofOdin

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Quote from: MadZealot;90942
Whew!  Because real arrows hurt.

 
Sorry about that. I like using images to get a point across.

Fireof9

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Quote from: FollowerofOdin;91549
Sorry about that. I like using images to get a point across.


Bahahaha

That struck me as funny when you are talking about arrows LOL

Don't mind me........
Really?  So, hey, want to go fishing?  I\'ve got a telescope, and it\'s going to be a dark night, so we should see the fish really well.
...what, I\'m not talking about fishing?  That\'s stargazing?  It\'s all doing-stuff, so it\'s the same thing, right?
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FollowerofOdin

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Quote from: Fireof9;91556
Bahahaha

That struck me as funny when you are talking about arrows LOL

Don't mind me........

 
That's okay, I don't mind. I think I shock someone at least once a week. My mother is going to be shocked, and that's not my intention, when I start wearing my pendent that has Loki on it.

Lykeia

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Quote from: RandallS;67394
The author of this note believes that all Pagans should celebrate the eight Wheel holidays in some way even if they are not a part of their specific Pagan path -- just as many Christians celebrate secular cultural holidays like Memorial Day, Independence Day, Thanksgiving, etc. religiously even though they are not truly holy days in Christianity. Doing so would give Pagans more of a common culture and would be more visible to the general public than each group only doing their religion's own thing.

What you you think? .


I think that would cause a decisive divide between those who celebrate festivals aligned with this wheel of the year, and those who do not. Whereas I am not adverse to moving festivals around to work with my own locality if they don't make sense to me where they are (an most do on symbolic grounds), I see no need to move them about to align with the wheel of the year. I share a few festivals with this wheel, just the solstices and equinoxes though, but I prefer to enjoy the beauty of my religion as it is rather than force myself to celebrate something that is not part of my beliefs....and in some cases may have nothing to do with festivities going on near the same time. My question to said person would then be...should those who have different religious calendars abandon their own festivities that are occurring for the sake of unity?
I don't think being the same should be a prerequisite to any concept of unity.

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