collapse

* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: "I'm Not Wiccan, but..."  (Read 7228 times)

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4855
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 736
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: "I'm Not Wiccan, but..."
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2011, 05:51:39 pm »
Quote from: victoreia;11227
I've been reading the responses, and it seems to me the distinction is similar to distinguishing between denominations of Christianity. Some people are Roman Catholic (the "mother church"--haha), some people are Protestant. But they're all Christian. The beliefs are basically the same, but the ways those beliefs are taught and practiced are different. That's how I interpret the Wiccan/not-Wiccan distinctions.

 
And some people are Unitarian Universalists, which while it may once have been Christian, really isn't anymore.

And some people go to services in buildings that used to be churches and have since been sold.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

arkeiryn

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 39
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: "I'm Not Wiccan, but..."
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2011, 06:09:01 pm »
Quote from: Katefox;11200
Likewise, honouring the sabbats and esbats need not be Wiccan (though the names are, as far as I know).  People have been marking time by the sun and moon for centuries, religiously, and non-religiously.  If I choose to give days like the solstices, equinoxes, full moons, &c religious significance in my own practice (without reference to Wiccan ceremonies), this doesn't mean I'm celebrating the Wiccan holidays, just because Wicca got there first.


The way I see it, the Wiccan Sabbats are based on British folk holidays and solar events, and I (wish to, it's taking a while to get off the armchair stage) celebrate them because of that, not because they've been adopted by Wicca. I wish to celebrate the passing of the year, and since I live in England, the Wheel of the Year style of celebration fits.
"That which yields is not always weak."

"Yes my lord, but questions are dangerous, for they have answers"

arkeiryn

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 39
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: "I'm Not Wiccan, but..."
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2011, 06:16:27 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;11270
It's sort of like two people sitting down at a piano and playing - you can get Bach, or you can get Scott Joplin, or you could get new-agey improv: they are all using a similar set of exoteric practices (person, piano, keys produce repeatable notes, etc.) but with very different effect.


I'd just like to say that I love your analogy. Much better than anything I could try to come up with!

Quote
But, as I already said, these same people also tend to follow a system that is very Wiccan in style. I've heard plenty of witches who cast circles, call the four elements to the quarters, celebrate the eight sabbats, and worship "the Goddess", claim to not be Wiccan.


See, for me, witchcraft is not religious, so even if I did cast a circle and call the elements, even if I celebrate Sabbats, even if I get over my agnosticism enough to ask for the aid of a Goddess in practice, evn if I have a book on Wicca in a drawer in my room, I would not be Wiccan, because ultimately it's a religious witchcraft system.
"That which yields is not always weak."

"Yes my lord, but questions are dangerous, for they have answers"

Nyktelios

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 562
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: "I'm Not Wiccan, but..."
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2011, 12:25:15 am »
Quote from: Katefox;11200
Casting a circle, and calling the quarters predates Wicca.  Look up the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram; it's basically casting a circle and calling the quarters, and was/is a beginning ritual in ceremonial magic traditions like the Golden Dawn.  As I understand it, Gardner studied ceremonial magic before he came up with Wicca, so circle casts, and quarter calls from ceremonial traditions very likely influenced Gardner in making up the Wiccan version.


True, many elements of modern Wicca originated in other systems, but I meant that all those elements *together* make a person Wiccan in style. I agree that casting circles in itself doesn't necessarily make someone Wiccan

Quote from: arkeiryn;11544
The way I see it, the Wiccan Sabbats are based on British folk holidays and solar events, and I (wish to, it's taking a while to get off the armchair stage) celebrate them because of that, not because they've been adopted by Wicca. I wish to celebrate the passing of the year, and since I live in England, the Wheel of the Year style of celebration fits.

 
Also a fair point, although (and I could be wrong), the Celts only celebrated the four fire festivals (Imbolg, Beltane, Lughnasadh, Samhain), not the solstices and equinoxes. The eight festivals being celebrated within one system is a modern innovation of Wiccan tradition. I think even in the early days of Wicca, it was only the four Celtic festivals that were celebrated at first until the solstices and equinoxes eventually were incorporated.

I should clarify that I think there are valid reasons for people not to use the Wiccan label, even if they do follow a practice that is similar in style, like using circles and the eight festivals. My main point was that many people who are Wiccan for all intents and purposes and do not really have any deviation from Wicca are rejecting the label, maybe because it's just the trendy thing to do. Wicca has gone fairly mainstream, and there are now a lot of misconceptions associated with the label, which could be why people want to avoid it. I guess they can do what they want, but I just think it's odd.

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4855
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 736
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: "I'm Not Wiccan, but..."
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2011, 12:50:43 am »
Quote from: Carnelian;11890
My main point was that many people who are Wiccan for all intents and purposes and do not really have any deviation from Wicca

 
From a conservative perspective, someone who is not an initiate in a line from Gardner is not and cannot be Wiccan, no matter how much superficial similarity they collect.

If someone doesn't have such an initiation and the knowledge of the mysteries that it imparts, for all intents and purposes they are not Wiccan.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Micheál

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Belfast, N. Ireland
  • Posts: 566
  • Country: ie
  • Total likes: 14
    • View Profile
    • Gall-Ghael
  • Religion: Alexandrian Wicca, Gaelic Polytheism
Re: "I'm Not Wiccan, but..."
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2011, 04:43:26 pm »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;11177
I think much of that is due to the fact many Family Trads are still secretive and not open to outsiders.  That and I think many encompass folk and granny magics and practices that cleary are not Wiccan based or inspired.

Good point, but I think that classifies them more as family traditions than religious traditions(in general that is, I'm sure it isn't always true for some.) There are similar traditions in Missouri's Ozark Mountain Country, but they can be seen as secular without any pagan deities. Hutton pointed it out that a lot of the non-Wiccan Traditional&Hedge Witch claims seen mostly in the 90's come without sources or shreds of evidence

Even in Ireland there are individuals knows as 'horse whisperers,' 'Bone menders&blood clotters' that can make blood clot with an incantation or poem that can be uddered, even on the phone, but it's not part of their religion. Even in regards to pagan deities, there are folk traditions like a child Halloween rhyme in Wexford that the Gaeltacht kids sing, "Anocht Oíche Shamhna Mongfhinne banda,"(Tonight is the night of Samahin of Mongfhionn the goddess), but it's a folk, and not religious tradition, sang by Catholics.

Quote from: Audris;11254
A few times on youtube videos I've heard Wiccans stating:

'Wiccans can't agree on what to have for lunch.'

I think, from the articles and videos I've been seeking out from Wiccans over time, that this is quite true.

This may be true for 'Wiccans in general,' but when it comes to Traditional Wicca, most of us are in agreement of what it consists of because its praxis remains the same.
Quote from: Carnelian;11890
The eight festivals being celebrated within one system is a modern innovation of Wiccan tradition. I think even in the early days of Wicca, it was only the four Celtic festivals that were celebrated at first until the solstices and equinoxes eventually were incorporated.

That's correct. The 4 Greater Sabbats that maintain the same names as the Celtic festivals were the original Sabbats, and the Lesser Sabbats were incorporated by Gardner's Bricket Wood coven because they wanted more days to have parties on.

Rowanfox

  • Sr. Apprentice
  • ****
  • Join Date: Aug 2011
  • Posts: 65
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: "I'm Not Wiccan, but..."
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2011, 05:17:19 pm »
Quote from: Carnelian;11140


Let's talk about it. Why is there such a trend to reject the Wiccan label, even among witchy people who follow a very Wiccanish system?

 
Once upon a time many folks called themselves Wiccan when they were practicing one of any number of non-mainstream religions. In part because it was a recognized religion, in part because at that time Wicca had become a sort of non-threatening, tree hugging nature based religion that wouldn't scare the parents too much.

These days many seem to have veered away from the title as they simply do not want to be confused with the BTWs.

It is with no small amount of humour that I confess my religion here reads "Gardnerian", just to be very specific about what kind of Wicca, since in the 21st century, the term still defies definition.

Teri

monsnoleedra

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 957
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: "I'm Not Wiccan, but..."
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2011, 05:18:41 pm »
Quote from: Micheál;12052
Good point, but I think that classifies them more as family traditions than religious traditions(in general that is, I'm sure it isn't always true for some.) There are similar traditions in Missouri's Ozark Mountain Country, but they can be seen as secular without any pagan deities. Hutton pointed it out that a lot of the non-Wiccan Traditional&Hedge Witch claims seen mostly in the 90's come without sources or shreds of evidence..


Oh I agree fully.  I think that is one of the reasons so many family trads and such were tied to Shamanic type concepts or Native American concepts.  It was and is seen as a practice or something that just is its seldom tied to a spiritual or religious influence.  It was and is part of thier lives but seldom connected to a religious facet as they worshipped and believed in the same things their community did.

For me its one reason I see my spiritual (gods & Goddesses) as seperate and different from my practice as a Hedge Witch / Hedge Rider / Green Witch / Shamanic type practioner or what ever name one might choose to say what a person is in thier lives.

With regards to Hutton all I'll say is its like buying land in the mountains.  If its being offered to an outsider its something that no one in the area wanted and knows its history and mis-history.  Its a first class game of stump a chump and selling something that contains nothing of worth but makes the buyer think they are getting a great and full deal.  Flood plains and verticle lays of land are often sold in such a manner while good pasture lands and timber lands are kept in families or bough up by locals if the land does become available.

There's no so called evidence for the researcher was not family and many forms are oral in passage not written.

monsnoleedra

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 957
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: "I'm Not Wiccan, but..."
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2011, 05:25:26 pm »
Quote from: Rowanfox;12061
Once upon a time many folks called themselves Wiccan when they were practicing one of any number of non-mainstream religions. In part because it was a recognized religion, in part because at that time Wicca had become a sort of non-threatening, tree hugging nature based religion that wouldn't scare the parents too much.  ..


We saw that notion arrive in the late 80's and into the 90's but it wasn't because it was a tree hugging religion.  It was because of the proliferation of supposed initiation revelations and books about it that suddenly arrived on the market to take ones money.  Almost to the point where many of them where basically .."You might be a Wiccan if......." and all you had to do was fill in a blank.  Many books that are still cited and referenced as the way to go for the ecclectic Wiccan today.

Audris

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Aug 2011
  • Posts: 27
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://thefourqueens.blogspot.co.uk/p/welcome-and-updates_605.html
Re: "I'm Not Wiccan, but..."
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2011, 10:03:42 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;11896
If someone doesn't have such an initiation and the knowledge of the mysteries that it imparts, for all intents and purposes they are not Wiccan.

Exactly, that's a big part of why I couldn't adopt the Wiccan label. Yes, by all means, many people seem happy to call themselves Neo-Wiccan and that usually means that they're solitary practitioners and they might not really believe in the Law of Threefold Return and whatever else, but in truth those practising Traditional coven-orientated Wicca have every right to say that these new, solitary practices are not really Wicca as it was designed to be. I'd have to be Wiccan on my own terms and change things up a little, so instead of appropriating the name and then feeling fraudulent because I'm not 'doing it by the book', I'd rather just call myself eclectic or whatever, take from the traditions I'd like to take from and leave it at that.

Also, my friend and I were talking about this today and perhaps this is a bit of a sore subject but we've noted that Neo-Wiccans on youtube, Wiccan Together etc consciously separate themselves from Traditional Wicca because they see it as too rigid and as homophobic. Neo-Wicca seems to have attracted quite a large gay following and I've noted gay Neo-Wiccans griping about traditionalist texts coming over as homophobic. I suppose a lot of this could be misunderstanding since there's such a big focus on the duality and balance of the god and goddess.. I know that The Witches' Bible, which is super coven-orientated and was written by Alexandrian wiccans, definitely states that homosexuality is a no go.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 10:08:31 pm by Audris »
The Four Queens - Tarot, spirituality and personal development

Jenett

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Boston, MA
  • Posts: 3134
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 678
    • View Profile
    • Seeking: First steps on a path
  • Religion: Initiatory religious witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: "I'm Not Wiccan, but..."
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2011, 10:37:35 pm »
Quote from: Audris;12138
I suppose a lot of this could be misunderstanding since there's such a big focus on the duality and balance of the god and goddess.. I know that The Witches' Bible, which is super coven-orientated and was written by Alexandrian wiccans, definitely states that homosexuality is a no go.

 
It's also worth remembering how long ago that book was written. Lots of attitudes change a whole lot in 30+ years.

The current attitude, that I've heard repeatedly from trad Wiccans, is that they don't care about orientation - they care about whether someone's interested in doing the work they  do. (Which does include two deities who are heterosexually attracted to each other and who create a new life together...)

Some folks (of all orientations) are fine with that as a central focus. Some folks (again, of all orientations) aren't. The ones that aren't are better off looking elsewhere, probably, just the same way that people who don't like structured ritual methods, or group work, or don't want to drive that far, or whatever are.

A number of the GLBT trad folk I know (and I know a fair number) also have some other practice in their life that explores other areas of spiritual interaction - gay men's mystery group works, for example, or dual training in trads like the Minoan Brotherhood.
Seek Knowledge, Find Wisdom: Research help on esoteric and eclectic topics (consulting and other services)

Seeking: first steps on a Pagan path (advice for seekers and people new to Paganism)

Nyktelios

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 562
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: "I'm Not Wiccan, but..."
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2011, 10:47:11 pm »
Quote from: Audris;12138
I know that The Witches' Bible, which is super coven-orientated and was written by Alexandrian wiccans, definitely states that homosexuality is a no go.

 
Actually, they just say that it isn't their place to comment on "gay covens" as they don't know much about that type of Wicca, and they have no problem with homosexuals as long as they still work within the male-female partnership model of coven work. It's not a concept I personally agree with, but for their tradition, and like Jenett said, the time it was written, I understand it.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, that book contains a chapter on self-initiation and a ritual suggestion for it, as does Doreen Valiente's book, "Witchcraft For Tomorrow".

Audris

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Aug 2011
  • Posts: 27
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://thefourqueens.blogspot.co.uk/p/welcome-and-updates_605.html
Re: "I'm Not Wiccan, but..."
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2011, 12:41:57 am »
Quote from: Carnelian;12148
Actually, they just say that it isn't their place to comment on "gay covens" as they don't know much about that type of Wicca, and they have no problem with homosexuals as long as they still work within the male-female partnership model of coven work. It's not a concept I personally agree with, but for their tradition, and like Jenett said, the time it was written, I understand it.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, that book contains a chapter on self-initiation and a ritual suggestion for it, as does Doreen Valiente's book, "Witchcraft For Tomorrow".

Wow, in that case a hell of a lot of Neo-Wiccans have been unnecessarily defensive about it, haha!
The Four Queens - Tarot, spirituality and personal development

Audris

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Aug 2011
  • Posts: 27
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://thefourqueens.blogspot.co.uk/p/welcome-and-updates_605.html
Re: "I'm Not Wiccan, but..."
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2011, 12:45:03 am »
Quote from: Jenett;12145
It's also worth remembering how long ago that book was written. Lots of attitudes change a whole lot in 30+ years.

I guess when I think of Traditional Wicca I think of Wiccans who haven't changed a whole lot in 30 years, hence the name..

Quote
The current attitude, that I've heard repeatedly from trad Wiccans, is that they don't care about orientation - they care about whether someone's interested in doing the work they  do. (Which does include two deities who are heterosexually attracted to each other and who create a new life together...)

I think that's great. Not that I'd have an issue with trad Wiccans being homophobic for religious reasons (I'm pretty tolerant of intolerance) but it would certainly prevent me and a lot of others from being able to identify as trad so it's good that the attitude has changed.
The Four Queens - Tarot, spirituality and personal development

Jenett

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Boston, MA
  • Posts: 3134
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 678
    • View Profile
    • Seeking: First steps on a path
  • Religion: Initiatory religious witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: "I'm Not Wiccan, but..."
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2011, 05:42:52 am »
Quote from: Audris;12164
I guess when I think of Traditional Wicca I think of Wiccans who haven't changed a whole lot in 30 years, hence the name..


Just because the practices haven't changed (the trad bit) doesn't mean the attitudes that aren't about the practices don't change.

Otherwise, it's a bit like, say, assuming that all classical musicians hate popular music, or that Shakespeare scholars refuse to watch movies.

Quote

I think that's great. Not that I'd have an issue with trad Wiccans being homophobic for religious reasons (I'm pretty tolerant of intolerance) but it would certainly prevent me and a lot of others from being able to identify as trad so it's good that the attitude has changed.

 
There's been pretty extensive conversation about this on the Amber and Jet email list multiple times (it comes up about every six months) - and honestly, every single time, what I've seen is "There's variation by individual coven, and yeah, some people have attitudes I don't care for. But in general, it's not a big deal, as long as you're interested in doing the work the group is doing, not demanding it change to suit you."

Which, really, is true for tons of stuff, so it's not like sexual orientation is a special issue.
Seek Knowledge, Find Wisdom: Research help on esoteric and eclectic topics (consulting and other services)

Seeking: first steps on a Pagan path (advice for seekers and people new to Paganism)

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
10 Replies
3276 Views
Last post October 15, 2015, 09:33:58 pm
by Lilirin
28 Replies
3359 Views
Last post August 07, 2015, 10:52:42 am
by rinceoir
5 Replies
1812 Views
Last post October 15, 2015, 06:25:36 am
by Lilirin
11 Replies
3120 Views
Last post July 16, 2016, 09:59:40 pm
by Phouka
7 Replies
1312 Views
Last post March 28, 2017, 11:18:19 pm
by SunflowerP

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 44
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 1
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall