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Author Topic: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.  (Read 5546 times)

Marilyn/Absentminded

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2012, 03:41:38 pm »
Quote from: Skyth;65682


If you like, what about publicizing the new name (and location) of a criminal that was caught, but ratted out several other criminals that did worse crimes so is released and put in witness protection?


Were the other criminals under aged victims?  This isn't a math formula into which we can just plug in other variables.  These are real people and real events.

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Skyth

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2012, 04:04:11 pm »
Quote from: Marilyn/Absentminded;65684
Were the other criminals under aged victims?  This isn't a math formula into which we can just plug in other variables.  These are real people and real events.

Absent

 
If the law says that the identities are not to be revealed in both cases then revealing the names should be punished regardless of the reason for the identities being secret.

Or is it a case of 'Vigilante justice is okay if...'?

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2012, 04:20:35 pm »
Quote from: Skyth;65687
If the law says that the identities are not to be revealed in both cases then revealing the names should be punished regardless of the reason for the identities being secret.

Or is it a case of 'Vigilante justice is okay if...'?

 
Is this really vigilante justice, though? I'm seriously asking this question because I have such an emotional reaction to this case (and little to no experience with our country's legal system) that I just don't know.

My gut and limited experience in the world tells me that rape and assault victims are too often denied healing and justice, even if the court rules in their favor. My bias tells me that people who commit rape - even juveniles - are terrible people who deserve to be outed so the whole world knows. I don't think they deserve protection. I don't think a victim deserves to be silenced. If carried out, what would this look like on a national scale? I don't know, man. It's probably a good thing I'm in in charge of laws or policy in this country, because I'd lean more towards vengeance for the victim than anything else.
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sailor

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2012, 04:22:42 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;65610


None of the above is in question here.  The only question is, SHOULD she be in trouble for stating the names of the attackers.  Yes?

 
Uh, no.  Should she be in trouble for violating a court order not to mention the names?  Yes, that's called rule of law.

Should the court order be struck down? Given the precedents, yes. There is a procedure for this though and Twitter is not it.

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2012, 04:25:55 pm »
Quote from: Skyth;65653
Yes.  As I was reading this, the question that comes to mind is 'is vigilante justice acceptable?' because that is what she is basically attempting.

The boys in question were minors, and legally their names are withheld.  If you don't like that, get the law changed.  However, you can't pass a law to apply a punishment or change the punishment for something that happened prior to the law passing.

 
There wasn't a law, it was the whimsey of a female judge who is trying to make a name for herself.

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #50 on: July 23, 2012, 04:29:05 pm »
Quote from: Nyktipolos;65675

I am not saying those two kids who raped that girl deserve being outed. What I AM saying is that her being outed and them being outed are definitely not the same thing. They did not DO the same thing.

 
The charges so far reported are Not rape. Apparently the boys photographed her while they were fondling her breasts.

Skyth

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #51 on: July 23, 2012, 04:38:07 pm »
Quote from: Sage;65692
Is this really vigilante justice, though? I'm seriously asking this question because I have such an emotional reaction to this case (and little to no experience with our country's legal system) that I just don't know.


From what was reported, she outed the boys because she didn't think the punishment was 'enough'.  That's pretty much the definition of vigilante justice.

Quote
My gut and limited experience in the world tells me that rape and assault victims are too often denied healing and justice, even if the court rules in their favor. My bias tells me that people who commit rape - even juveniles - are terrible people who deserve to be outed so the whole world knows. I don't think they deserve protection. I don't think a victim deserves to be silenced. If carried out, what would this look like on a national scale?


Which is exacly my point.  America has a strong culture of taking matters into your own hands if the law doesn't do you right.  Just look at how popular Batman is :)

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It's probably a good thing I'm in in charge of laws or policy in this country,

 
If you're in charge, can I get a couple million dollars? ;)

Nyktipolos

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #52 on: July 23, 2012, 04:39:15 pm »
Quote from: sailor;65699
The charges so far reported are Not rape. Apparently the boys photographed her while they were fondling her breasts.

From earlier in the thread:

Quote from: mlr52;65587
"On June 26, the boys pleaded guilty to first-degree sexual abuse and misdemeanor voyeurism. Terms of their plea agreement were not released." retrieved from: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/savannah-dietrich-twitter-sexual-assault-louisville-174732753.html (near the middle of the article).

She was sexually abused against her will. For all intents and purposes, that's rape. (And I'm sure to that girl, considering what I've seen her talk about publicly, that it was rape to her.)

There was also no "apparently". They pleaded guilty. That's what led to her tweeting about it in the first place, because they pleaded guilty and were already convicted, and were going to presumably receive a lighter sentence.

Also, the contempt charges have now been withdrawn.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 04:41:04 pm by Nyktipolos »
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Skyth

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #53 on: July 23, 2012, 04:42:05 pm »
Quote from: sailor;65694
Should the court order be struck down? Given the precedents, yes. There is a procedure for this though and Twitter is not it.


I wasn't aware of any precedent for revealing the names of minors.  Granted, I didn't look either so it's probable that you're right.  I always worked under the assumption that the names of minors were protected in court unless they are being tried as an adult.

SkySamuelle

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #54 on: July 23, 2012, 04:44:02 pm »
Quote from: sailor;65699
The charges so far reported are Not rape. Apparently the boys photographed her while they were fondling her breasts.

I guess this makes it less desgusting, violating and/or criminal ... or not. :eek: A sexual predator is a sexual predator - it's the same pathological behavior with the same chance of repetition but... it's not the point since nobody claimed those boys were rapists here , even if it's a difference dictated by pure chance, probably.

I also don't understand where the 'apparently ' comes from neither- why is the focus of the thread shifting toward putting in doubt something a court has definied for certain?

I think the difference between rebelling against a legal agreement the victim was not given the opportunity to refuse to keep things quiet and vigilante justice is quite blatant, but that's my opinion.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 04:49:19 pm by SkySamuelle »
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Nyktipolos

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #55 on: July 23, 2012, 04:46:03 pm »
Quote from: Nyktipolos;65703

She was sexually abused against her will. For all intents and purposes, that's rape. (And I'm sure to that girl, considering what I've seen her talk about publicly, that it was rape to her.)

 
Just to avoid any editing problems here, I'll make a new post.

I'm sure we could spend all day arguing what is or is not rape. That's not what I'm trying to start here. If it makes conversation easier I'll use "sexual abuse" from now on. The boys however were still convicted.
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sailor

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #56 on: July 23, 2012, 05:16:14 pm »
Quote from: Nyktipolos;65703


There was also no "apparently". They pleaded guilty. That's what led to her tweeting about it in the first place, because they pleaded guilty and were already convicted, and were going to presumably receive a lighter sentence.


 
What they plea bargained to and what they were initially charge with and what actually happened are potentially 3 different things.  

I don't have a source for the court findings, hence apparently. If you have an online source of the court findings I'd like to see it.

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #57 on: July 23, 2012, 05:28:43 pm »
Quote from: sailor;65708
What they plea bargained to and what they were initially charge with and what actually happened are potentially 3 different things.  

I don't have a source for the court findings, hence apparently. If you have an online source of the court findings I'd like to see it.

 
My question remains - why is it necessary to see the court findings and to put in discussion the victim 'version' of what's happen when there's no logical indicator that 'What they plea bargained to and what they were initially charge with and what actually happened are potentially 3 different things'?

The sadly funny thing here is that even the real victim of the story  is doing nothing to shrug off the legal repercussions on her account of her 'rebellion'- she is not saying that she shouldn't be punished for twitting the assaulters names away, she is saying that any punishment she can receive was worth it for her.

How does one read her statements and decide that her version of events, despite a court deciding otherwise, is just not  enough or enough real?
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Kasmira

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #58 on: July 23, 2012, 06:18:39 pm »
Quote from: Marilyn/Absentminded;65683
Only an extreme one can demonstrate why she is in the wrong to name her attackers?


[Emphasis mine]

I think the question that is being argued here is less about whether her action was wrong as about whether there is something inherently unethical in breaking the law. That is, it's not whether her action in a vacuum was unethical, but whether the fact that it was illegal makes it so (with the correct course of action being to work to change the laws).

Now, I've long been of the opinion that it is my prerogative to make my own moral decisions and whether an action is illegal or not has no baring at all on its morality. As far as I'm concerned, the purpose of laws is to tilt the cost-benefit analysis of certain actions in favor of not doing them. In this case, the action of outing her rapists has the cost of possible jail time. She knew this when she made the decision to out them and she did it anyway. I don't think that was wrong. It was illegal, but not wrong. The purpose of the legal system is not to define morality, it is to maintain a system of rules which allow for the smooth functioning of society.

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Skyth

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2012, 06:39:56 pm »
Quote from: Kasmira;65715


I think the question that is being argued here is less about whether her action was wrong as about whether there is something inherently unethical in breaking the law. That is, it's not whether her action in a vacuum was unethical, but whether the fact that it was illegal makes it so (with the correct course of action being to work to change the laws).

Now, I've long been of the opinion that it is my prerogative to make my own moral decisions and whether an action is illegal or not has no baring at all on its morality. As far as I'm concerned, the purpose of laws is to tilt the cost-benefit analysis of certain actions in favor of not doing them. In this case, the action of outing her rapists has the cost of possible jail time. She knew this when she made the decision to out them and she did it anyway. I don't think that was wrong. It was illegal, but not wrong. The purpose of the legal system is not to define morality, it is to maintain a system of rules which allow for the smooth functioning of society.

 
Nice summary.  I do think there is a difference between intentionally harming someone else because the law didn't punish them to your satisfaction (IE vigilantism) and disobeying laws because you find them unethical (IE civil disobedience).

This is partially because, at least in the US, you can't challenge a law in the courts until you are harmed by it.

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