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Author Topic: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.  (Read 5574 times)

monsnoleedra

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2012, 08:00:47 am »
Quote from: Marilyn/Absentminded;65599
I haven't actually expressed an opinion in this thread.  You are assuming that I disagree with you, when it could simply be that I think you are trying to pad your position because people keep questioning it.  I can't remember whether such testimonials come under 'appeal to authority' or something else, but I do know it's generally considered a weak move in a debate.

Marilyn


Sorry my bust there.  I added the explanation of where it originated when I was asked how I could take or hold such a position. It wasn't appealing to an authority simply stating the main influence upon me.
 
Quote
Madzealot wrote : What part of this makes her "not innocent of it either in my opinon." Really trying to understand this POV.

Annie Roonie wrote: Not sure what points you were trying to make actually. I am confused as to why you would attack a 17 year old girl that you do not know though. Not curious, but to your credit entirely, confused.


Not trying to pad anything I think i've been very clear in presenting my reasoning and the why of it.

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2012, 08:08:38 am »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;65605


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HeartShadow

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2012, 08:10:38 am »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;65605


 
Was a crime against this girl committed?  Yes

Was a plea bargain reached that she had no part of and would not have agreed to?  Yes.

Was she told she could not identify the people that attacked her?  Yes.

Did she choose to identify her attackers anyway?  Yes, and she accepted that she would need to face the consequences for that.

None of the above is in question here.  The only question is, SHOULD she be in trouble for stating the names of the attackers.  Yes?

HeartShadow

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2012, 08:11:10 am »
Quote from: RandallS;65608
*** MOD HAT ON ***
I've seen quite enough. You are banned from this thread.  Why? Just consider it an arbitrary decision made for the good of this board by the host. Warning to everyone: This is a Host decision and is not subject to discussion.

 
Whoops, sorry boss, cross-posted.

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2012, 10:46:05 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;65580
This kind of thing hits some of us closer than it hits others.  
Because of that some are more able to remain objective.  But objective does not necessarily mean non-empathetic.

 
Victim-blaming is neither objective nor empathetic.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
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we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Skyth

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2012, 12:55:00 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;65610
Was a crime against this girl committed?  Yes

Was a plea bargain reached that she had no part of and would not have agreed to?  Yes.

Was she told she could not identify the people that attacked her?  Yes.

Did she choose to identify her attackers anyway?  Yes, and she accepted that she would need to face the consequences for that.

None of the above is in question here.  The only question is, SHOULD she be in trouble for stating the names of the attackers.  Yes?


Yes.  As I was reading this, the question that comes to mind is 'is vigilante justice acceptable?' because that is what she is basically attempting.

The boys in question were minors, and legally their names are withheld.  If you don't like that, get the law changed.  However, you can't pass a law to apply a punishment or change the punishment for something that happened prior to the law passing.

HeartShadow

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Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2012, 01:17:08 pm »
Quote from: Skyth;65653
Yes.  As I was reading this, the question that comes to mind is 'is vigilante justice acceptable?' because that is what she is basically attempting.

The boys in question were minors, and legally their names are withheld.  If you don't like that, get the law changed.  However, you can't pass a law to apply a punishment or change the punishment for something that happened prior to the law passing.

The thing is, there's a difference between the court identifying people and the girl identifying them.  Or there should be.  I don't see how someone can be bound by a gag order if she's not a government employee and didn't agree to it.

Skyth

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2012, 02:08:54 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;65657
The thing is, there's a difference between the court identifying people and the girl identifying them.  Or there should be.  I don't see how someone can be bound by a gag order if she's not a government employee and didn't agree to it.

 
I don't really think there's a difference and I do see.  It's hard to put why into words.  However, 'outing' the names of the boys is trying to enact punishment of them beyond what the law describes.  Especially since the laws perscribe that the identities be withheld.

How would you feel if, citing freedom of the press, a newspaper publishes the name of a minor that was sexually assaulted.  Even though the name was purposefully withheld, but the newspaper investigated the matter and found it out?

Nyktipolos

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2012, 02:21:01 pm »
Quote from: Skyth;65664
How would you feel if, citing freedom of the press, a newspaper publishes the name of a minor that was sexually assaulted.  Even though the name was purposefully withheld, but the newspaper investigated the matter and found it out?

 
But that's not the same thing. The victim outed her attackers, not the other way around. So I think a better hypothetical question would be to replace "a minor that was sexually assaulted" with "a minor that sexually assaulted someone else".
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MadZealot

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2012, 02:56:21 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;65635
Victim-blaming is neither objective nor empathetic.

True.  I was trying to be nice.
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MadZealot

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2012, 02:59:21 pm »
Quote from: Skyth;65664
How would you feel if, citing freedom of the press, a newspaper publishes the name of a minor that was sexually assaulted.  Even though the name was purposefully withheld, but the newspaper investigated the matter and found it out?

 
Good question.  Freedom of the press, though related, is a separate issue.  What we have here is a victim of a crime having her speech rights curtailed.
Superman is uncircumcised. Change my mind.

Skyth

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2012, 03:14:22 pm »
Quote from: Nyktipolos;65665
But that's not the same thing. The victim outed her attackers, not the other way around. So I think a better hypothetical question would be to replace "a minor that was sexually assaulted" with "a minor that sexually assaulted someone else".


I put it the way I did on purpose, as I DO see them as the same thing.  Both have the identities legally protected but the identities are found out and told to others under the claim of first amendment rights.

I see the point of 'they did something bad so deserve anything that gets thrown at them'.  However, that can be taken to extremes, such as gunning down a child that steals a penny candy (Not saying the crimes in this case are comparable...Just an example of an extreme).  

That is why society has laws that deal with crime and punishment.  I'm all for changing the laws to reflect the crime.  However, deciding by yourself in the heat of emotion after the courts had their say that 'they didn't get what they deserved' and deciding to take matters into your own hands is another.

I really see the 'outing' of the boys names as an attempt at vigilante justice.

Nyktipolos

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2012, 03:20:55 pm »
Quote from: Skyth;65673
I put it the way I did on purpose, as I DO see them as the same thing.  Both have the identities legally protected but the identities are found out and told to others under the claim of first amendment rights.

 
While we all have our own opinions on the matter at hand (and that's why I am deliberately not discussing it), the two are VERY different situations. One is someone who was viscerally sexually assaulted against their will, the other is perpetrating it. If both were outed, there is only one person in that situation who is still very much so the victim of the crime than the other (which would be it's own case).

I am not saying those two kids who raped that girl deserve being outed. What I AM saying is that her being outed and them being outed are definitely not the same thing. They did not DO the same thing.
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Skyth

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2012, 03:38:36 pm »
Quote from: Nyktipolos;65675
I am not saying those two kids who raped that girl deserve being outed. What I AM saying is that her being outed and them being outed are definitely not the same thing. They did not DO the same thing.

 
They may not have done the same thing, but under the law, their identities are treated the same.  Whether they should or not is good topic of discussion and laws can be changed.  

If you like, what about publicizing the new name (and location) of a criminal that was caught, but ratted out several other criminals that did worse crimes so is released and put in witness protection?

Marilyn/Absentminded

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Re: Teen sex-assault victim could face contempt, jail time.
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2012, 03:40:34 pm »
Quote from: Skyth;65673
 However, that can be taken to extremes, such as gunning down a child that steals a penny candy (Not saying the crimes in this case are comparable...Just an example of an extreme).  


So there is no realistic comparison that could carry your point?  Only an extreme one can demonstrate why she is in the wrong to name her attackers?  (being ordered not to is the only reason I can see here, and there is obviously a great deal of disagreement about the validity of that order.

As an exercise, can you come up with a reasonable reason to support her action (warning of others, suspicion of preference on part of the judge, closure that comes with a willingness to accept her legal punishment)?  Or would you have to go to an extreme example for that too?

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