collapse
2020 Donation Drive

It's time for our annual Server Donation Drive! We need to raise at least $710 to keep The Cauldron's server online for another year. Please help! Either hit that Paypal button to the right and make a one-time donation in any amount or set up a monthly Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor subscription. You can find more info in this message!

Donations as of 26 November 2020: $636 donated. Only $74 more needed! Thank you, donors!


Note: This total is updated manually, usually once a day


* Recent Posts

Re: Tigereye by sevensons
[Today at 03:37:43 am]


Re: Calendar for Ancient Greek Holidays by SunflowerP
[Yesterday at 06:51:33 pm]


Re: Crazy thought by Sefiru
[Yesterday at 06:18:59 pm]


Calendar for Ancient Greek Holidays by Delphinium
[Yesterday at 04:55:01 pm]


Re: Tigereye by sevensons
[Yesterday at 04:09:16 pm]

Author Topic: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare  (Read 3598 times)

Altair

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: New York, New York
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 3068
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 440
  • Fly high and make the world follow
    • View Profile
    • Songs of the Metamythos
  • Religion: tree-hugging pagan
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2012, 10:25:17 am »
Quote from: Skyth;62077
Just as a point of info, there already was a tax increase for those who didn't buy an electric car.  Or rather, there was a tax credit for buying an electric car.  Really, the same thing at the end.


And then there are "sin" taxes, on cigarettes and alcohol. Gov't has used tax policy in an effort to influence behavior for a long time.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Altair

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: New York, New York
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 3068
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 440
  • Fly high and make the world follow
    • View Profile
    • Songs of the Metamythos
  • Religion: tree-hugging pagan
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2012, 10:33:02 am »
Quote from: Aryel32;62023
So now this means that we don't HAVE to buy health coverage, but if we don't we're taxed? Where's the logic in that?


The idea is to strongly encourage *everyone* to buy coverage, and provide subsidies, etc., for those who otherwise couldn't afford to buy coverage. Only by having nearly the entire population covered can the costs and risks of insurance be spread around enough folks to make it viable.

This is imperfect--I'd prefer a nationalized system, like Canada or the UK--but it's *far* better than what we had prior to ObamaCare, with millions left uninsured, folks trapped in jobs simply for the health insurance, and "previous conditions" keeping people from being able to get insurance at all.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Holdasown

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Location: West Virginia
  • Posts: 398
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 7
    • View Profile
    • Blog
  • Religion: Norse/Germanic Polytheists
Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2012, 11:08:25 am »
double post
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 11:13:06 am by Holdasown »

Holdasown

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Location: West Virginia
  • Posts: 398
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 7
    • View Profile
    • Blog
  • Religion: Norse/Germanic Polytheists
Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2012, 11:12:10 am »
Quote from: Altair;62091
The idea is to strongly encourage *everyone* to buy coverage, and provide subsidies, etc., for those who otherwise couldn't afford to buy coverage. Only by having nearly the entire population covered can the costs and risks of insurance be spread around enough folks to make it viable.

This is imperfect--I'd prefer a nationalized system, like Canada or the UK--but it's *far* better than what we had prior to ObamaCare, with millions left uninsured, folks trapped in jobs simply for the health insurance, and "previous conditions" keeping people from being able to get insurance at all.


I still think there is going to be a fringe group told they make too much for subsides but can't afford coverage. I run into that all the time. I also think if you get health care with your job and have to pay out of pocket if you leave people will still feel trapped.

I do think the previous condition is great. My concern is that if four people enter a doctors office or hospital for treatment and all get the same care they are all billed differently depending on their coverage. I don't see how that gets fixed and more reasonable rates applied to everyone.


Quote from: Skyth;62077
Just as a point of info, there already was a tax increase for those who didn't buy an electric car.  Or rather, there was a tax credit for buying an electric car.  Really, the same thing at the end.


A tax credit is getting a discount for doing something, like a health insurance discount for not smoking. It is different than an increase.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 11:13:25 am by Holdasown »

Skyth

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 391
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2012, 12:28:47 pm »
Quote from: Ula;62102

A tax credit is getting a discount for doing something, like a health insurance discount for not smoking. It is different than an increase.

 
Functionally, they're the same.  With a credit, you get an effective increase in taxes for everyone but if you do 'x' you get your taxes lowered.  With a penalty you pay extra if you don't do 'x'.   In the end, if you do 'x' you end up in the same situation either way and the same if you don't do 'x'.

It's just a psychological thing where things called 'penalties' people will try harder to avoid.  Same as 'extra credit' assignments for homework.

Owl

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 587
  • Country: 00
  • Total likes: 24
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Other
Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2012, 03:43:24 pm »
Quote from: Starglade;62034
I didn't say anything about those who are uninsured completely.

I said that for the majority of folks--the majority are insured in some way--there won't be much difference.

I can only hope that the exchanges are up and running if I end up uninsured.

 
I realize I was mixing up the actual numbers and the percentages - I was thinking 40% uninsured when it seems it's more like 16.7%, but the number 49 million was talked about a lot when this was being pushed.

Even so - 49 million is lot of people to force insurance payments on when many of those are unemployed or underemployed.  For those there will be a big difference.  I am sensitive to this because in 54 years of my life I have had health insurance maybe 6 of those years.
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

Starglade

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 404
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2012, 04:06:46 pm »
Quote from: Owl;62116
I realize I was mixing up the actual numbers and the percentages - I was thinking 40% uninsured when it seems it's more like 16.7%, but the number 49 million was talked about a lot when this was being pushed.

Even so - 49 million is lot of people to force insurance payments on when many of those are unemployed or underemployed.  For those there will be a big difference.  I am sensitive to this because in 54 years of my life I have had health insurance maybe 6 of those years.

I'm the same age as you. I've been luckier in that for MOST of my life I've been insured. Right now I'm covered by Medicaid because of our household's status w/r/t unemployment (both adults out of work) and number of dependents.

The 49 million number applied before the ACA went into effect in 2010. As of now the number's closer to 30 million, because of folks who were able to get coverage/be covered post-ACA. A fair number of folks who are un- or under-employed are supposed (I say, "supposed") to be able to get coverage from the government, via Medicare/Medicaid. Between those and the exchanges that are due to be active as of 2014, folks who currently can't afford coverage *should* have better options. (Notice, I don't claim that every individual will. I say that more people should be able to find options that are better than what's currently available.)

http://www.healthcare.gov/law/timeline/index.html

I find that URL has an excellent visual timeline that makes most of the ACA easier to get a handle on.

The system's still broken, but it's not as broken as it was before. And without nuking the whole thing from orbit to be sure, this kind of thing is the only way we really have with which to proceed.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 04:08:00 pm by Starglade »
"The Eightfold Path is sometimes called the pathless path. Each step brings a growing awareness that enlightenment is in the here and now--in the world and in our relationships as we read these words . . . now." -- Jonathan White
http://grammargeddon.com

MadZealot

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2011
  • Location: So Cal
  • Posts: 2481
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 191
  • Eye yam tu papi.
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Bitter Clinger. Sith Lord.
Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2012, 04:53:36 pm »
Quote from: Skyth;62077
Just as a point of info, there already was a tax increase for those who didn't buy an electric car.  Or rather, there was a tax credit for buying an electric car.  Really, the same thing at the end.

 
Yes.  Manipulation of the people through tax policies.
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

Okay. Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets.

Altair

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: New York, New York
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 3068
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 440
  • Fly high and make the world follow
    • View Profile
    • Songs of the Metamythos
  • Religion: tree-hugging pagan
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2012, 09:05:50 pm »
Quote from: Starglade;62118
without nuking the whole thing from orbit


Heh. The Hicks-Ripley Healthcare Plan: "The Only Way To Be Sure".
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

sailor

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1505
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2012, 09:25:45 pm »
Quote from: Starglade;62118

The system's still broken, but it's not as broken as it was before. And without nuking the whole thing from orbit to be sure, this kind of thing is the only way we really have with which to proceed.

 
Now that it is a tax, it is not subject to Senate filibuster rules. So only a 51 vote majority is needed to repeal it, and for the House they don't have the filibuster rule.

Then there is the power for the President, acting thru the Sec HHS, to issue waivers on essentially a whim.

Or for Congress to repeal the mandate tax in the next round of working class tax cuts (whether tied to tax cuts for the rich or not is a seperate issue).  The mandate tax now falls into the same catagory of negiable items as the FICA payroll holiday, EIC, etc.

Starglade

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 404
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2012, 09:41:35 pm »
Quote from: sailor;62185
Now that it is a tax, it is not subject to Senate filibuster rules. So only a 51 vote majority is needed to repeal it, and for the House they don't have the filibuster rule.

Then there is the power for the President, acting thru the Sec HHS, to issue waivers on essentially a whim.

Or for Congress to repeal the mandate tax in the next round of working class tax cuts (whether tied to tax cuts for the rich or not is a seperate issue).  The mandate tax now falls into the same catagory of negiable items as the FICA payroll holiday, EIC, etc.

 
Um . . . okay. I was referring to the health care system, not the law. I know too little about law to debate it. I know just enough about the health care system to be dangerous. At least I know what I don't know.
"The Eightfold Path is sometimes called the pathless path. Each step brings a growing awareness that enlightenment is in the here and now--in the world and in our relationships as we read these words . . . now." -- Jonathan White
http://grammargeddon.com

MadZealot

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2011
  • Location: So Cal
  • Posts: 2481
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 191
  • Eye yam tu papi.
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Bitter Clinger. Sith Lord.
Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2012, 12:19:19 am »
Quote from: sailor;62185
Now that it is a tax, it is not subject to Senate filibuster rules. So only a 51 vote majority is needed to repeal it, and for the House they don't have the filibuster rule.

Then there is the power for the President, acting thru the Sec HHS, to issue waivers on essentially a whim.

Or for Congress to repeal the mandate tax in the next round of working class tax cuts (whether tied to tax cuts for the rich or not is a seperate issue).  The mandate tax now falls into the same catagory of negiable items as the FICA payroll holiday, EIC, etc.

 
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

Okay. Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets.

Owl

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 587
  • Country: 00
  • Total likes: 24
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Other
Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2012, 02:54:16 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;62198

 

This is hilarious:  http://www.truthdig.com/avbooth/item/the_daily_show_jon_stewart_mocks_cnn_fox_news_health_20120629/

Watch the video......gotta love John Stewart!
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

sailor

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1505
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2012, 07:59:22 am »
Quote from: Aryel32;62023
So now this means that we don't HAVE to buy health coverage, but if we don't we're taxed? Where's the logic in that?

 
The logic of economics.

You need to collect enough money from the young who do not use much health care to provide for the usage by the middle aged on up. You either get most people to buy insurance or you have to seriously raise taxes on everybody. There is a reason Europe has a VAT, it's an easy way to collect lots of money from most of the population.

Oh, and don't be surprised if the mandate tax penalty goes up every year.

I'm waiting to see what will happen to folks who show up at the emergency room without insurance for non-immediately life threatening events. Tax audit to see if you payed the penalty?

Any of our Canadian or EU members want to tell about their countries handle non-citizens who do not have insurance?

sailor

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1505
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2012, 08:04:55 am »
Quote from: Thorn;61949
This just made me snort Pepsi out my nose...  :whis:

Though I have to admit I'm a disturbed about all the "2nd Civil War" comments I keep seeing.

 
Ignore the 2nd civil war.  The terms you need to be on look out for are Bleeding Kansas, Lebanon and or Spanish Civil War.  Expect 75 to 150 million dead in the US and up to a billion more world wide. China devolves into 1920's warlordism as the Best outcome.

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
81 Replies
9470 Views
Last post August 23, 2013, 08:46:58 pm
by Carla
20 Replies
1924 Views
Last post June 18, 2013, 09:54:51 pm
by sailor
5 Replies
1490 Views
Last post September 04, 2014, 11:00:41 pm
by MadZealot
58 Replies
4027 Views
Last post July 02, 2015, 11:31:38 pm
by SunflowerP
8 Replies
1418 Views
Last post June 06, 2018, 10:33:26 am
by Darkhawk

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 44
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 0

There aren't any users online.

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall

SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal