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Author Topic: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare  (Read 3597 times)

MadZealot

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Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2012, 09:35:43 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;61915
I am doubly thrilled. SCOTUS upheld the law but ruled that Congress did not have the power to mandate people buy health insurance under the commerce clause (but did have the power to TAX people who did not buy it under their taxation power).

This is good (IMHO) because if Congress could mandate that people buy a product under the commerce clause, I expected all sorts of large businesses to start pressuring Congress to pass laws requiring everyone to buy their products.


Might happen anyway.  Weren't insurance companies backing this bill?  If they don't get a boatload of new policyholders then Washington collects revenue.  Win/win for big business and big government.  (Oh, and didn't the President say the mandate was not a tax?)

All that remains is putting forth the rationale that making a citizen buy a commodity is in the nation's best interest.  Next it'll be buy a Chevy Volt or pay a tax, because green energy is in the national interest.  Buy contraception or pay a tax, because reducing abortions and/or welfare (hey, pick your side) is in the national interest.  (Can I avoid that tax if I get a vasectomy? Hmm.)   If you don't spend your money the way we think you should, enjoy the extra tax.  
It may not be a mandate, perhaps the tax is more of a "penalty", but the end result is the same.  Mighty fine hairsplitting going on.
Next up... 2014, when someone has the tax levied against them and challenges it.
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Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2012, 09:46:00 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;62003
All that remains is putting forth the rationale that making a citizen buy a commodity is in the nation's best interest.  Next it'll be buy a Chevy Volt or pay a tax, because green energy is in the national interest.

Far less likely than if it was legal to just require people to buy stuff, simply because it is harder to get a tax increase approved and they are very hard to sneak into a bill as rider (you can really only do that with another tax bill).
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MadZealot

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Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2012, 09:59:11 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;62006
Far less likely than if it was legal to just require people to buy stuff, simply because it is harder to get a tax increase approved and they are very hard to sneak into a bill as rider (you can really only do that with another tax bill).

 
It is legal, now...  The SCROTUS decision simply makes it easier to openly manipulate the people through taxation.  
Don't even have to sneak it in anymore.  Just call it a mandate, then call it a tax, then call it a mandate, then call it a tax....

Maybe I'm just too cynical.  :p  Healthcare for everyone is a noble goal.  Here's to hoping it's won't become the HMO-meets-DMV clusterfuck that people expect it to become.
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

Okay. Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets.

Aryel32

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Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2012, 10:06:29 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;62013
It is legal, now...  The SCROTUS decision simply makes it easier to openly manipulate the people through taxation.  
Don't even have to sneak it in anymore.  Just call it a mandate, then call it a tax, then call it a mandate, then call it a tax....

Maybe I'm just too cynical.  :p  Healthcare for everyone is a noble goal.  Here's to hoping it's won't become the HMO-meets-DMV clusterfuck that people expect it to become.

 
I really don't have a head for politics and I'm really really confused by all of the uproar about Obamacare. On the right we have "omg national debt is already so high and you want us to increase taxes to pay for OTHER PEOPLE?!" On the left we have "americans deserve the right to equal healthcare, at fair rates, no matter the preexisting condition, and to be healthy." That's really what I'm seeing. I don't get how universal healthcare is "socialist." Doesn't half of Europe have government issued healthcare??

Also, can someone please dumb down for me the big deal that today's mandate was?
I feel like a moron for not getting it. :/

MadZealot

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Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2012, 10:35:44 pm »
Quote from: Aryel32;62015
I don't get how universal healthcare is "socialist." Doesn't half of Europe have government issued healthcare??
Yes, but half of Europe is socialist.  :D:
But, seriously...

Quote
On the right we have "omg national debt is already so high and you want us to increase taxes to pay for OTHER PEOPLE?!" On the left we have "americans deserve the right to equal healthcare, at fair rates, no matter the preexisting condition, and to be healthy." That's really what I'm seeing.
Well, both sides are right.  Yes, healthcare for all is laudable.  The problem is whether it's fiscally doable, and that takes money.  And we're out of money.  Too many years of deficit spending and fighting illegal wars, and no end to either in the near future.  
Butbutbut... "the private sector is doing just fine."  Not.

Quote
Also, can someone please dumb down for me the big deal that today's mandate was?
I feel like a moron for not getting it. :/
You're not a moron.  
The 'mandate' that had people riled up was the legal requirement that everyone in the US purchase health insurance.  Of course that's not feasible for a lot of folks, especially the un(der)employed, so for them it solves nothing.  The controversy was over whether the Government can require a private citizen to purchase a commodity.  The Supreme Court said no, Congress can't make you buy XYZ, but they can tax you if you don't buy it.  Though it eventually amounts to the same thing, it's not a mandate anymore, it's a tax, which makes it legal.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 10:36:51 pm by MadZealot »
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

Okay. Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets.

Aryel32

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Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2012, 10:44:54 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;62020
You're not a moron.  
The 'mandate' that had people riled up was the legal requirement that everyone in the US purchase health insurance.  Of course that's not feasible for a lot of folks, especially the un(der)employed, so for them it solves nothing.  The controversy was over whether the Government can require a private citizen to purchase a commodity.  The Supreme Court said no, Congress can't make you buy XYZ, but they can tax you if you don't buy it.  Though it eventually amounts to the same thing, it's not a mandate anymore, it's a tax, which makes it legal.

 
So now this means that we don't HAVE to buy health coverage, but if we don't we're taxed? Where's the logic in that?

Owl

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Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2012, 10:49:09 pm »
Quote from: Aryel32;62023
So now this means that we don't HAVE to buy health coverage, but if we don't we're taxed? Where's the logic in that?


There was always a fine built into it for those who didn't buy and didn't qualify for free or subsidized.
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

Starglade

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Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2012, 10:49:54 pm »
Quote from: Aryel32;62023
So now this means that we don't HAVE to buy health coverage, but if we don't we're taxed? Where's the logic in that?

 
If you're employed and covered by your employer (like so many are), there's no problem.

If like me you're covered by Medicaid (or by Medicare for others), there's no problem.

MOST folks won't know there's a difference, from where they're sitting.
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Owl

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Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2012, 10:52:29 pm »
Quote from: Starglade;62027
If you're employed and covered by your employer (like so many are), there's no problem.

If like me you're covered by Medicaid (or by Medicare for others), there's no problem.

MOST folks won't know there's a difference, from where they're sitting.


Really?  I know a lot of uninsured people.  The only reason it doesn't make a difference to me is that I get Va insurance as a spouse - for less that $50 a month to make a whole family able to use a standard list of doctors and copays without going to the Va hospital.  Otherwise I would be looking at over $300 a month and I don't have it.
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

MadZealot

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Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2012, 10:55:03 pm »
Quote from: Aryel32;62023
So now this means that we don't HAVE to buy health coverage, but if we don't we're taxed? Where's the logic in that?

Indeed.
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

Okay. Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets.

Starglade

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Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2012, 11:13:22 pm »
Quote from: Owl;62028
Really?  I know a lot of uninsured people.  The only reason it doesn't make a difference to me is that I get Va insurance as a spouse - for less that $50 a month to make a whole family able to use a standard list of doctors and copays without going to the Va hospital.  Otherwise I would be looking at over $300 a month and I don't have it.

 
I didn't say anything about those who are uninsured completely.

I said that for the majority of folks--the majority are insured in some way--there won't be much difference.

I can only hope that the exchanges are up and running if I end up uninsured.
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sailor

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Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2012, 06:19:28 am »
Quote from: Altair;61910
OK, maybe I missed it, but I figured the political hounds on this board would be all over this by now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/us/supreme-court-lets-health-law-largely-stand.html?_r=1&hp

To say that I'm thrilled--not to mention surprised (esp. by the Roberts part)--would be an understatement. But here are my favorite parts:

Headline from my fave blog, JoeMyGod.com:

(props to those of you geeks, like me, who recognize from where the headline is brilliantly purloined)

and this:
People Who Say They're Moving To Canada Because Of ObamaCare
http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/people-moving-to-canada-because-of-obamacare
These are akin to that photo of the guy using his hand to shield his eyes from the sun...while wearing a baseball cap backwards. Them there Americans don't know nuthin' about Canadia!

 
I've been at sea. that's my excuse. Just pulled in and finished hooking up services about 45 minutes ago.

Was able to look briefly at some stuff. 5-4 with Roberts the swing (not sure where Kennedy was). the majority accepted the dissent's basic argument but said ObamaCare was legal since the mandate was a tax despite the language saying it wasn't.

More later, maybe.

sailor

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Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2012, 06:23:07 am »
Quote from: RandallS;61915
I am doubly thrilled. SCOTUS upheld the law but ruled that Congress did not have the power to mandate people buy health insurance under the commerce clause (but did have the power to TAX people who did not buy it under their taxation power).

This is good (IMHO) because if Congress could mandate that people buy a product under the commerce clause, I expected all sorts of large businesses to start pressuring Congress to pass laws requiring everyone to buy their products.  It sounds silly, I know, but think about how large business effectively "buy" (with campaign donations) laws in their favor now and you know that some immoral business leader would glom onto the idea of requiring everyone to buy their product by law to increase their sales and profits easily.  Pressuring Congress to TAX people who don't buy their product would be far less likely to work well.

 
Also agree, with the caveat that I haven't read much about the decision yet.

sailor

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Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2012, 06:36:20 am »
Quote from: Starglade;62034
I didn't say anything about those who are uninsured completely.

I said that for the majority of folks--the majority are insured in some way--there won't be much difference.

I can only hope that the exchanges are up and running if I end up uninsured.

 
Uh, slight glitch in it for those who have "some" insurance. there is now, or rather soon will be, a minimum coverage requirement. Don't be surprised if lots of folks find that the minimal insurance they currently have doesn't meet the requirements. They'll either have to buy more expensive coverage or pay the tax for lack of coverage.

Skyth

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Re: SCOTUS Upholds ObamaCare
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2012, 08:28:47 am »
Quote from: RandallS;62006
Far less likely than if it was legal to just require people to buy stuff, simply because it is harder to get a tax increase approved and they are very hard to sneak into a bill as rider (you can really only do that with another tax bill).

 
Just as a point of info, there already was a tax increase for those who didn't buy an electric car.  Or rather, there was a tax credit for buying an electric car.  Really, the same thing at the end.

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