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Author Topic: Revelling in masochism, Hamas calls for new Intifada  (Read 2335 times)

Castus

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Revelling in masochism, Hamas calls for new Intifada
« on: December 07, 2017, 03:36:05 pm »
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-israel/hamas-calls-for-palestinian-uprising-over-trumps-jerusalem-plan-idUSKBN1E11BR

Quote
JERUSALEM/GAZA (Reuters) - The Islamist group Hamas urged Palestinians on Thursday to abandon peace efforts and launch a new uprising against Israel in response to U.S. President Donald Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as its capital.

It's really nice of them to give us a Chanukah present this early.
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Re: Revelling in masochism, Hamas calls for new Intifada
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2017, 06:15:55 pm »
It's really nice of them to give us a Chanukah present this early.

Err, right. I'm sure an upswing in terrorist attacks in Israel and around the world is exactly what people everywhere wanted. And that's likely to be the result of Trump's foolish move. The peace talks have been going nowhere for some time and were unlikely to go anywhere with the current administrations in the US and Israel so breaking them off isn't likely to be the only real response.
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Castus

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Re: Revelling in masochism, Hamas calls for new Intifada
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2017, 07:15:08 pm »
Err, right. I'm sure an upswing in terrorist attacks in Israel and around the world is exactly what people everywhere wanted. And that's likely to be the result of Trump's foolish move. The peace talks have been going nowhere for some time and were unlikely to go anywhere with the current administrations in the US and Israel so breaking them off isn't likely to be the only real response.

Well no, an upswing in attacks is not ideal. However the prospect of the Israeli retaliation is delicious. I'm not *thrilled* with the Likudniks right now (nor is any other Diaspora Jew as far as I can tell) but I'm really hoping Bibi will step up any Israeli response -- he's been pretty hardline with the Palestinians during his tenure but clearly someone in Gaza City hasn't gotten the message. Maybe a good clean sweep by the IDF will get them in line for a long while.
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Re: Revelling in masochism, Hamas calls for new Intifada
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2017, 10:09:08 pm »
Well no, an upswing in attacks is not ideal. However the prospect of the Israeli retaliation is delicious. I'm not *thrilled* with the Likudniks right now (nor is any other Diaspora Jew as far as I can tell) but I'm really hoping Bibi will step up any Israeli response -- he's been pretty hardline with the Palestinians during his tenure but clearly someone in Gaza City hasn't gotten the message. Maybe a good clean sweep by the IDF will get them in line for a long while.

Yeah, nothing like an uptick in Israeli apartheid to make the heart swell.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Castus

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Re: Revelling in masochism, Hamas calls for new Intifada
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2017, 10:26:02 pm »
Yeah, nothing like an uptick in Israeli apartheid to make the heart swell.
I'm going to pretend this isn't sarcasm and instead nod in approval.
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Re: Revelling in masochism, Hamas calls for new Intifada
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2017, 08:38:47 am »
I'm going to pretend this isn't sarcasm and instead nod in approval.

I don't think it was sarcasm. Israel's Palestinian citizens are definitely treated as second class people -- even those whose families have been citizens since Israel was founded. Given that, it's not surprising they do not want to treat Palestinians in their conquered territories and former conquered territories well. Such policies are some of the root causes of the problems in the Middle East. At times, it seems like the Israelis learned the majority of their methods for treating conquered areas from their Nazi oppressors in 1930-1940s Europe.

Note the Palestinian side isn't any better for the most part. However, so long as both sides don't want to really compromise and really work at living together in peace, nothing is going to change. Neither side is on any moral high ground.
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Castus

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Re: Revelling in masochism, Hamas calls for new Intifada
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2017, 10:31:22 am »
I don't think it was sarcasm. Israel's Palestinian citizens are definitely treated as second class people -- even those whose families have been citizens since Israel was founded. Given that, it's not surprising they do not want to treat Palestinians in their conquered territories and former conquered territories well. Such policies are some of the root causes of the problems in the Middle East. At times, it seems like the Israelis learned the majority of their methods for treating conquered areas from their Nazi oppressors in 1930-1940s Europe.

Note the Palestinian side isn't any better for the most part. However, so long as both sides don't want to really compromise and really work at living together in peace, nothing is going to change. Neither side is on any moral high ground.

Ah yes, the hardships that Palestinian citizens of Israel face are legendary; what with the Arab-dominated Joint List being the third largest party in the Knesset with over a dozen Arab MKs. Or the Arab judge on the Supreme Court of Israel. Or the record uptick of Arab Israelis joining the IDF. Or the Arab who was appointed to a top officer rank in the Israel Police...

But yeah, absolutely second-class people.

Any Palestinian willing to be a loyal citizen of the State of Israel and participate in a democratic society is welcome, and is treated no different than any other citizen of the State of Israel. Because of the difficulties with the Territories of course things might be more difficult with relatives or extended family et al but the basic facts are clear: anyone with a teudat zehut is an equal member of Israeli society and public life. Now with Palestinians in the so-called 'State of Palestine' who identify with the government in Ramallah/Gaza City things are different -- as they should be. The Palestinians have time and time again proven themselves to be thoroughly incapable of even running the country (more or less) that they have now, and continually engage in acts of violence against Israeli citizens. Even before this fresh new Intifada there has been an ongoing Knife Intifada which has killed dozens of Israelis in terror attacks.

Would it be nice if peace talks could resume? Yes. Would it be lovely if a stable two-state solution was achieved? Of course! But none of that can ever happen if the Palestinian government and people continue their terror attacks against the State of Israel or insist on ridiculous pie-in-the-sky concessions such as the Right of Return for Palestinians. As soon as the Palestinians demonstrate that they can be an actual partner in peace we will be ready to sit down with them; but they haven't. They've instead opted to act like obstinate, tantrum-throwing children with a penchant for violence and government corruption -- as these riots and protests are aptly demonstrating. I agree with every other sane person that the status quo is untenable. Constant smouldering violence is taken as daily life up until a rocket hits too close to home or Hamas et al. commits an act of unthinkable stupidity and kidnaps teenagers or kills soldiers; at which point Jerusalem brings down the hammer and we launch another 'Operation'. It's absolutely insane.

Therefore, we need to bring down the hammer once and for all. Evidently none of the Palestinian top brass are willing to do anything about it and so we'll have to do it for them. My fondest and most cherished wish is that Israel beats the State of Palestine so far into the ground they won't be able to stand back up until Israel lets them -- which will only happen once they agree to Israeli terms, at which point I am sure we would be only too happy to indulge in a spot of nation-building.
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Re: Revelling in masochism, Hamas calls for new Intifada
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2017, 11:35:27 am »
Ah yes, the hardships that Palestinian citizens of Israel face are legendary; what with the Arab-dominated Joint List being the third largest party in the Knesset with over a dozen Arab MKs. Or the Arab judge on the Supreme Court of Israel. Or the record uptick of Arab Israelis joining the IDF. Or the Arab who was appointed to a top officer rank in the Israel Police...

But yeah, absolutely second-class people.

Any Palestinian willing to be a loyal citizen of the State of Israel and participate in a democratic society is welcome, and is treated no different than any other citizen of the State of Israel. Because of the difficulties with the Territories of course things might be more difficult with relatives or extended family et al but the basic facts are clear: anyone with a teudat zehut is an equal member of Israeli society and public life. Now with Palestinians in the so-called 'State of Palestine' who identify with the government in Ramallah/Gaza City things are different -- as they should be. The Palestinians have time and time again proven themselves to be thoroughly incapable of even running the country (more or less) that they have now, and continually engage in acts of violence against Israeli citizens. Even before this fresh new Intifada there has been an ongoing Knife Intifada which has killed dozens of Israelis in terror attacks.

Would it be nice if peace talks could resume? Yes. Would it be lovely if a stable two-state solution was achieved? Of course! But none of that can ever happen if the Palestinian government and people continue their terror attacks against the State of Israel or insist on ridiculous pie-in-the-sky concessions such as the Right of Return for Palestinians. As soon as the Palestinians demonstrate that they can be an actual partner in peace we will be ready to sit down with them; but they haven't. They've instead opted to act like obstinate, tantrum-throwing children with a penchant for violence and government corruption -- as these riots and protests are aptly demonstrating. I agree with every other sane person that the status quo is untenable. Constant smouldering violence is taken as daily life up until a rocket hits too close to home or Hamas et al. commits an act of unthinkable stupidity and kidnaps teenagers or kills soldiers; at which point Jerusalem brings down the hammer and we launch another 'Operation'. It's absolutely insane.

Therefore, we need to bring down the hammer once and for all. Evidently none of the Palestinian top brass are willing to do anything about it and so we'll have to do it for them. My fondest and most cherished wish is that Israel beats the State of Palestine so far into the ground they won't be able to stand back up until Israel lets them -- which will only happen once they agree to Israeli terms, at which point I am sure we would be only too happy to indulge in a spot of nation-building.
While part of me wants the world to be all unicorns and rainbows (a nod to my mother, the ultimate fluff bunny) but the realist that is most of me understands that for a tiny Jewish state surrounded by Islamic states to survive, they have to make it clear they will never back down. That they will fight to the last person to stay. 


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Re: Revelling in masochism, Hamas calls for new Intifada
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2017, 02:14:22 pm »
Ah yes, the hardships that Palestinian citizens of Israel face are legendary; what with the Arab-dominated Joint List being the third largest party in the Knesset with over a dozen Arab MKs. Or the Arab judge on the Supreme Court of Israel. Or the record uptick of Arab Israelis joining the IDF. Or the Arab who was appointed to a top officer rank in the Israel Police...

But yeah, absolutely second-class people.

I do find it interesting how quickly your are to lay blame for the upheaval on only one side in the ongoing conflict, going so far as to what seems to be sarcastically ridiculing the Palestinian citizens for having established any government footing to essentially "follow the democratic rules" in order to ascertain their best interests have been represented... In fact, the majority of your reactions appear to be seething commentary on the perceived ineptitude of the Palestinians on the whole, ending with an extremely barraging inclination towards vicissitude, highlighting the violent actions of one side while decrying the validity of the others'.

It is probably more strategic to comment on the dual responsibilities of both parties in bringing about their current situation.  In order to end it one has to understand the historical and political actions intrinsically tied to those actions.  The UN itself has previously passed a number of resolutions against Israel for its violation of international law that included direct actions against Palestine.  That's not the Palestinians crying "woe is me", that's a formal acknowledgement by a coalition of world governments that Israel took illegal actions against a people.  Also, prior to the UN's establishment of Palestine being partitioned and eventually renamed to Israel, Palestine took in hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees prior and during WWII, only to have all Palestinian citizens forceably displaced to less than 40% of their original homelands.  This being said, it in no way validates the violence returned towards Israel.  We have many, numerous reported instances of Palestinian violence towards the Israelis. 

For peace to be found for both sides, though, they would both have to put aside equal fear, hurt, and animosity to create a better place to live in for themselves and future generations.  And with decades and century of history, as well as current on going violence feeding their fears, it's a hard thing to ask anyone to accept and put aside.




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Re: Revelling in masochism, Hamas calls for new Intifada
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2017, 08:42:08 pm »
I do find it interesting how quickly your are to lay blame for the upheaval on only one side in the ongoing conflict,

Yes, I tend to blame the party which actually deserves it; rather than condemn Israel too out of a misguided sense of egalitarianism. I don't have any use for the fashionably contemporary trend of refusing to blame only one party for their own faults. Not everything has to be everyone's fault -- and in the Israel/Palestine matter it certainly isn't. Israel's only fault is not sticking to a comprehensive policy, but what can be expected when you're the only one in the region that can manage democratic transitions of power from one administration to the next?

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going so far as to what seems to be sarcastically ridiculing the Palestinian citizens for having established any government footing to essentially "follow the democratic rules" in order to ascertain their best interests have been represented...

You misunderstand. I was not sarcastically ridiculing the Israeli Arabs for taking their own piece of the national pie -- such is their right as members of a free society and I cannot/do not condemn them for exercising that right. Am I a fan of the Joint List? No, their policies make me nauseous; but I appreciate the fact that they try to enact them through elections rather than explosions. What I was sarcastically ridiculing was Randall's very silly assertion that Israeli Arabs are somehow treated as 'second-class citizens'. They aren't, and the fact that they're so well-represented in national politics (I don't see any records of black Supreme Court justices in PW Botha's South Africa, do you?) proves the lie of that assertion.

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In fact, the majority of your reactions appear to be seething commentary on the perceived ineptitude of the Palestinians on the whole, ending with an extremely barraging inclination towards vicissitude, highlighting the violent actions of one side while decrying the validity of the others'.

It has, admittedly, taken me a moment to deconstruct the phrase 'barraging inclination towards vicissitude' but I think I have a handle on it now; however bizarrely put-together it is. So yes I will admit to the seething commentary in re: Palestinian ineptitude as a whole. It's frustrating that they have to be led by the hand in any attempts to get their shit together... when they're not being pampered and spoonfed by Tehran, that is. If by 'highlighting the violent actions of one side while decrying the validity of the others' you mean advocating for violence on the part of the IDF while refusing to countenance the same from Palestine then you are again absolutely correct. The difference is that actions by the IDF are always in reaction to Palestinian terrorism. Palestinian violence is merely destructive and selfish brutality and demands stringent measures to deter it.

Quote
It is probably more strategic to comment on the dual responsibilities of both parties in bringing about their current situation.  In order to end it one has to understand the historical and political actions intrinsically tied to those actions.

And here I was thinking that Israeli history only began after winning the Six Day War.

Quote
The UN itself has previously passed a number of resolutions against Israel for its violation of international law that included direct actions against Palestine.  That's not the Palestinians crying "woe is me", that's a formal acknowledgement by a coalition of world governments that Israel took illegal actions against a people.

Yes I'm aware of the UN's historic preoccupation with anti-Israeli agitation (who, after all, can forget when "Zionism is Racism" passed into international statute?) and give it all the weighty respect to which it is due: literally none at all. The last time the United Nations issued anything of substantive value concerning Israel was nearly 70 years ago when Israel was admitted to the UN itself. The United Nations' record on Israel is hilariously awful: UNESCO's resolution shitting all over the Jewish connection to East Jerusalem, the UN-sponsored conference which was bloated with antisemitic garbage, the shameful and longstanding bias of the "Human Rights Council" against Israel, the UN condemnation of the Entebbe hostage rescue for violating Ugandan sovereignty...

Hm. What am I missing here...

Oh right, Ban Ki-moon admitting the UN has historically passed a 'disproportionate number of resolutions, reports and committees against Israel' and openly discussing the existence of a UN bias against Israel. For reasons that I honestly cannot fathom the UN (and the UNHRC in particular) seem to bend over backwards every time a terrorist stubs his toe and their opinion on the State of Israel or Israeli policy is therefore meaningless.

Quote
Also, prior to the UN's establishment of Palestine being partitioned and eventually renamed to Israel, Palestine took in hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees prior and during WWII, only to have all Palestinian citizens forceably displaced to less than 40% of their original homelands.
 
I'm having a really hard time not posting an "oh really?" meme but I shall struggle through. First and foremost that doesn't reflect at all on Palestinian Arabs. You're seemingly trying to say 'Palestinians took in Jewish refugees during WWII and then Israel displaced them and that's mean" but that statement is true in no way whatsoever. Did Jews come to Palestine prior and during WWII? Absolutely. But this was hardly out of the magnanimous kindness of the Palestinian heart. At the risk of stating the obvious Palestine was at the time Mandatory Palestine and was held within the loving arms of the British Empire. Whether or not Jewish refugees were accepted into Mandatory Palestine was never an issue decided by Palestinian Arabs, but rather by the British government -- which was almost certainly a better option than the alternative. Which is not to say that the British did any better; in fact their position on Jewish immigration to Palestine was singularly awful. For that we can thank the 1939 White Paper. The White Paper was drawn up so that colonial authorities could throw a bone to the Arab citizenry as a result of the "intense apprehension" which plagued them and placed severe restrictions on Jewish immigration to the Mandate.

These restrictions were so severe that we had to organise the largest illegal immigration network in history until this point, which was dedicated exclusively to bypassing British immigration restrictions. I cannot stress enough that these restrictions remained firmly in place even after the Holocaust. The most famous instance of this is, of course, the SS Exodus; which carried over 4,000 passengers (most of them Holocaust survivors) and was attacked by the British at sea before arriving at Palestine where thousands of Holocaust survivors were deported across the globe. Even if 'hundreds of thousands' of refugees *were* accepted -- which they absolutely were not -- there were still thousands who were turned away after managing to survive the worst act of organised genocide in the history of the human race; and for that the British forfeited any brownie points that they may have earned.

And again, having said all of this, none of that had anything whatsoever to do with Arab Palestinians. There is no hypocritical or unjust equivalency between the post-War of Independence displacement of Palestinians and the (illegal, difficult, hard-fought, and often fatal) immigration of Jewish refugees to Mandatory Palestine; and if the Palestinians *had* been in charge the only difference is that the refugees would have been shot rather than deported. But if you'd like to discuss the displacement of Palestinians on its own terms that is quite alright. Personally I have no problem with the displacement of the Palestinians, they needed to make room for the over 800,000 Jews which were displaced from the Middle Eastern communities they had lived in for thousands of years. And anyway, less Arabs in Israel is always a good thing: the second Jews lose their demographic majority in the country Israel ceases to be a Jewish state; and will then proceed to partake in the proud Arab traditions of failed states, military rule, and sectarian violence and/or tyranny. We wouldn't want that, would we?

Quote
This being said, it in no way validates the violence returned towards Israel.  We have many, numerous reported instances of Palestinian violence towards the Israelis.
Very reasonable.

Quote
For peace to be found for both sides, though, they would both have to put aside equal fear, hurt, and animosity to create a better place to live in for themselves and future generations.  And with decades and century of history, as well as current on going violence feeding their fears, it's a hard thing to ask anyone to accept and put aside.
Indeed it is, which is why the Palestinians need to be forced to the table rather than begged to come to it.`
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 08:47:30 pm by Castus »
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ehbowen

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Re: Revelling in masochism, Hamas calls for new Intifada
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2017, 10:56:30 pm »
I don't think it was sarcasm. Israel's Palestinian citizens are definitely treated as second class people -- even those whose families have been citizens since Israel was founded. Given that, it's not surprising they do not want to treat Palestinians in their conquered territories and former conquered territories well. Such policies are some of the root causes of the problems in the Middle East. At times, it seems like the Israelis learned the majority of their methods for treating conquered areas from their Nazi oppressors in 1930-1940s Europe.

Note the Palestinian side isn't any better for the most part. However, so long as both sides don't want to really compromise and really work at living together in peace, nothing is going to change. Neither side is on any moral high ground.

Oh, that's a nice bone that you throw to Israel..."the Palestinian side isn't any better for the most part." Let's flip a coin; heads you wake up tomorrow as an Arab in Israel proper; tails you wake up as a Jew in the heart of the Gaza Strip. Call it in the air....
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Re: Revelling in masochism, Hamas calls for new Intifada
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2017, 02:39:01 am »
I don't think it was sarcasm. Israel's Palestinian citizens are definitely treated as second class people -- even those whose families have been citizens since Israel was founded. Given that, it's not surprising they do not want to treat Palestinians in their conquered territories and former conquered territories well. Such policies are some of the root causes of the problems in the Middle East. At times, it seems like the Israelis learned the majority of their methods for treating conquered areas from their Nazi oppressors in 1930-1940s Europe.

Note the Palestinian side isn't any better for the most part. However, so long as both sides don't want to really compromise and really work at living together in peace, nothing is going to change. Neither side is on any moral high ground.

Oh, that's a nice bone that you throw to Israel..."the Palestinian side isn't any better for the most part." Let's flip a coin; heads you wake up tomorrow as an Arab in Israel proper; tails you wake up as a Jew in the heart of the Gaza Strip. Call it in the air....

Actually, we don't even have to envision you changing religions or ethnicity. Let's just say that you, Randall S, were compelled by circumstances to spend the next six months living abroad, with no special protection and with the local authorities and most of your neighbors knowing your religious identity. Which would it be...Israel, or Gaza?

Oh, and I dispute your contention that "...they do not want to treat Palestinians in their conquered territories and former conquered territories well." It's been well documented that, when they pulled out of the Gaza Strip, Israel left a great deal of infrastructure, including productive greenhouses, in place and operational. The "Palestinians" torched it and reduced it to rubble.

I entirely stand with Israel on this issue. You cannot have peace until both sides want it. The Israelis do; look at how well even the uneasy "cold peaces" with Jordan and Egypt have worked out over past decades. The "Palestinians" do not.

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Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

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Re: Revelling in masochism, Hamas calls for new Intifada
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2017, 04:52:10 pm »
Ah yes, the hardships that Palestinian citizens of Israel face are legendary; what with the Arab-dominated Joint List being the third largest party in the Knesset with over a dozen Arab MKs. Or the Arab judge on the Supreme Court of Israel. Or the record uptick of Arab Israelis joining the IDF. Or the Arab who was appointed to a top officer rank in the Israel Police...

But yeah, absolutely second-class people.


Yes, the third largest party because it's several other Arab parties joined together (hence 'Joint' List). Also, 13 out of 120 people is barely 11%. while Palestinians reportedly take up 20% of Israel's population. If that means Palestinians are treated equally in Israel, then the fact that roughly 20% of US Congress is female (while women make up 50.8% of the US population) means that sexism is over in America and women are not treated unfairly or unequally compared to men.

While I won't argue things I don't know a whole lot about, I do, in fact, see mistakes on both sides. I've seen no mention of Israeli strikes on Palestinians from you, Castus, or that foreign powers helped to establish "Jewish national home" while the Palestinians are already there. Personally I feel that portraits painted of the Palestinians are unfair to the history of having their land taken from them by foreign governments despite their protest- the Arabs said from the beginning of the partitioning of Palestine that they would not accept it. Hundreds of thousands of people were displaced because of it. Violent protest is how people show a government their anger when that government or other powers- like the UN- refuses to listen. While I also don't agree with the extreme violence, it's not for no reason.

This discussion reminds me of a video, which may be a little irreverent to the seriousness of the topic, but is still relevant. Warning: Cartoon blood and guts.

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Re: Revelling in masochism, Hamas calls for new Intifada
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2017, 07:07:52 pm »
Let's flip a coin; heads you wake up tomorrow as an Arab in Israel proper; tails you wake up as a Jew in the heart of the Gaza Strip. Call it in the air....

Either way, I'm screwed and in the middle of what is likely to be a warzone, so what the difference does it make? Of course, if I have to make the choice in a world where Trump did not decide to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and move our embassy there, the choice might be somewhat more meaningful -- my choice would likely still be based on which one I though I could sneak out of easiest, however, as I have no desire to live in either and hence would not.
Randall
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