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Author Topic: “I am willing to give up some of my constitutional rights...."  (Read 1474 times)

MadZealot

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Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

Okay. Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets.

yewberry

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Re: “I am willing to give up some of my constitutional rights...."
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2013, 01:33:04 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;105184
"... in order to be safer or more secure"


I'm not finding any info about this (including from the school district response "link").  And given it's the Blaze doing the reporting, I'm dubious.

Brina

MadZealot

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Re: “I am willing to give up some of my constitutional rights...."
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2013, 03:36:37 am »
Quote from: yewberry;105185
I'm not finding any info about this (including from the school district response "link").  And given it's the Blaze doing the reporting, I'm dubious.


A lot of sites are running with the copy, so we'll see.
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

Okay. Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets.

yewberry

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Re: “I am willing to give up some of my constitutional rights...."
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2013, 03:47:51 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;105190
A lot of sites are running with the copy, so we'll see.

All similarly reactionary mouthpieces.  Nothing independent, and no interviews from the players involved.  In a 24-hour news cycle, it's been a good long while.  I'm very, very dubious.

Brina
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 03:49:54 am by yewberry »

mandrina

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Re: “I am willing to give up some of my constitutional rights...."
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2013, 09:32:09 am »
Quote from: yewberry;105191
All similarly reactionary mouthpieces.  Nothing independent, and no interviews from the players involved.  In a 24-hour news cycle, it's been a good long while.  I'm very, very dubious.

Brina

I'm questioning just because the father didn't go to the school, he just talked to 'other kids' in the class and took it straight to the blaze.  No asking the principal to investigate or anything like that, which would be appropriate to the situation.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 09:33:10 am by mandrina »
Katrina

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yewberry

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Re: “I am willing to give up some of my constitutional rights...."
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2013, 02:07:45 pm »
Quote from: mandrina;105209
I'm questioning just because the father didn't go to the school, he just talked to 'other kids' in the class and took it straight to the blaze.  No asking the principal to investigate or anything like that, which would be appropriate to the situation.


Exactly.  Reporting isn't just talking to one angry guy.  Until I see more, I'm assuming it's just reactionary claptrap.

Brina

MadZealot

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Re: “I am willing to give up some of my constitutional rights...."
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2013, 02:37:09 pm »
Quote from: yewberry;105229
I'm assuming it's just reactionary claptrap.

It will be interesting if that turns out not to be the case.

"The Justice Teaching activity on constitutional rights that was conducted at Cedar Hills Elementary School is consistent with our efforts to broaden civics-based education and develop critical thinking skills among our students. The lesson builds awareness of First Amendment rights through a partnership with an association of local attorneys. Our possible concern rests with a follow-up activity that may have been conducted after the lesson."
-- Nikolai Vitti, Duval County Public Schools Superintendent.


http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/article/308587/3/10-year-old-gives-up-his-Constitutional-rights
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 02:38:34 pm by MadZealot »
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

Okay. Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets.

yewberry

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Re: “I am willing to give up some of my constitutional rights...."
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2013, 02:56:00 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;105233
It will be interesting if that turns out not to be the case.

"The Justice Teaching activity on constitutional rights that was conducted at Cedar Hills Elementary School is consistent with our efforts to broaden civics-based education and develop critical thinking skills among our students. The lesson builds awareness of First Amendment rights through a partnership with an association of local attorneys. Our possible concern rests with a follow-up activity that may have been conducted after the lesson."
-- Nikolai Vitti, Duval County Public Schools Superintendent.


http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/article/308587/3/10-year-old-gives-up-his-Constitutional-rights

Yeah, but we still have no idea why the child was directed to write this or even if this is, in fact, what he was directed to write.  The word "not" in the sentence would reverse the meaning and the parents would likely be cheering.

Fact is, lots of people are willing to give up Constitutional rights for safety.  In a middle or high school setting, an exercise that discussed an individual's willingness to do so would be completely developmentally appropriate.  It's possible that the "a-ha" lesson was somewhat beyond younger kids, though, and that (for me) would be the primary problem with it.

And hey, he did spell "Constitutional" correctly.  Good for him.

ETA:  in case I wasn't being clear--it looks like a tempest in a teapot to me.

Brina
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 02:56:57 pm by yewberry »

MadZealot

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Re: “I am willing to give up some of my constitutional rights...."
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2013, 04:43:16 pm »
Quote from: yewberry;105235
Fact is, lots of people are willing to give up Constitutional rights for safety.
Yes.  Quite disturbing imo.

Quote
In a middle or high school setting, an exercise that discussed an individual's willingness to do so would be completely developmentally appropriate.  It's possible that the "a-ha" lesson was somewhat beyond younger kids, though, and that (for me) would be the primary problem with it.
The latter part, for me, is the primary problem.  I'm no professional educator, yet I don't believe a 4th grader would understand what their rights are, much less what it means to willingly surrender any rights.  I would agree that this talk should be had a in a different setting, perhaps within a HS civics class; and better yet, couched within a broader discussion of when it might be best to give up your rights and when it might be best to cling bitterly to your guns and religion.  Frame all that within the context of why the Constitution was designed the way it was, and why certain rights were not only deemed inalienable but also explicitly protected by the new rule of law, and you have a hell of a lesson plan.  

As to this being a tempest in a teapot, I'm not so sure.  Perhaps it's not so shocking as the "Jews are Evil" assignment but it's still problematic; what are these educators thinking and what agendas are they trying to push.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 04:44:57 pm by MadZealot »
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

Okay. Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets.

mandrina

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Re: “I am willing to give up some of my constitutional rights...."
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2013, 06:04:09 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;105242
Yes.  Quite disturbing imo.


The latter part, for me, is the primary problem.  I'm no professional educator, yet I don't believe a 4th grader would understand what their rights are, much less what it means to willingly surrender any rights.  I would agree that this talk should be had a in a different setting, perhaps within a HS civics class; and better yet, couched within a broader discussion of when it might be best to give up your rights and when it might be best to cling bitterly to your guns and religion.  Frame all that within the context of why the Constitution was designed the way it was, and why certain rights were not only deemed inalienable but also explicitly protected by the new rule of law, and you have a hell of a lesson plan.  

As to this being a tempest in a teapot, I'm not so sure.  Perhaps it's not so shocking as the "Jews are Evil" assignment but it's still problematic; what are these educators thinking and what agendas are they trying to push.

 
Honestly, I think they've trying to do something that they've been accused of not doing, trying to make kids think.
Katrina

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Jack

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“I am willing to give up some of my constitutional rights...."
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2013, 08:16:13 pm »
Quote from: mandrina;105243
Honestly, I think they've trying to do something that they've been accused of not doing, trying to make kids think.

Don't we train our kids to give up their constitutional rights in school anyway? Dress codes, speech curtails, the threat of punishment without due process (suspension/expulsion), random search and seizures, being required to say the pledge and put up with prayer at big events... and all of that was before Columbine. And some of it was unconstitutional and they did it anyway.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
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MadZealot

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Re: “I am willing to give up some of my constitutional rights...."
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2013, 08:35:16 pm »
Quote from: Jack;105249
Don't we train our kids to give up their constitutional rights in school anyway? Dress codes, speech curtails, the threat of punishment without due process (suspension/expulsion), random search and seizures, being required to say the pledge and put up with prayer at big events... and all of that was before Columbine. And some of it was unconstitutional and they did it anyway.


And that's the rub isn't it.  We should be willing to give up our rights if the trade-off is safety and security.  Who needs all that pesky liberty anyhow.  We all know that too much liberty begets anarchy.

We're not trying to tell people what to think, we're just trying to show them how.
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

Okay. Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets.

Kokopelli

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“I am willing to give up some of my constitutional rights...."
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2013, 09:02:15 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;105250
And that's the rub isn't it.  We should be willing to give up our rights if the trade-off is safety and security.  Who needs all that pesky liberty anyhow.  We all know that too much liberty begets anarchy.

We're not trying to tell people what to think, we're just trying to show them how.


I live in this city.

I have to ask what led to the end result?  For being so adamant about giving up some freedoms, I've yet to see a mass protest about the TSA's new policies or even the use of drones to kill US citizens on US soil.  Nothing has been done to protest the detainment of US citizens without due process.  The Patriot Act was signed, and people cheered about it.

Hell, people camped out for weeks for "Occupy Wall Street."

There were protests when we went to war with Iraq in '03.

I'm not making this a political game of Republicans vs Democrats, but for people to be upset about this, they need to realize the cold truth:  Americans have already given up their rights for  security.

MadZealot

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Re: “I am willing to give up some of my constitutional rights...."
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2013, 12:56:01 am »
Quote from: Kokopelli;105252
I'm not making this a political game of Republicans vs Democrats, but for people to be upset about this, they need to realize the cold truth:  Americans have already given up their rights for security.


Heh.  I think a lot of times we are hyper-partisan, to the point of hypocrisy.  The current administration looks a lot like the old one on a paper, with the endless wars, shitty economy, and Constitutional abuses.  Only difference is what direction the bitching is coming from; other than that it's meet the new boss, same as the old boss; hope and change were just buzzwords.  
Patriot Act: great example.  Bush signed it: lefties pissed, righties mum.  Obama renewed it: righties pissed, lefties mum.  It's just a big game of thrones to these fucking people.  
I could go on and on with examples of partisan bulshittery, but I don't want this post to become a damned novel.

Why aren't people protesting more?  I think they're not paying attention.
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

Okay. Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets.

Kokopelli

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“I am willing to give up some of my constitutional rights...."
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2013, 04:17:55 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;105256
Heh.  I think a lot of times we are hyper-partisan, to the point of hypocrisy.  The current administration looks a lot like the old one on a paper, with the endless wars, shitty economy, and Constitutional abuses.  Only difference is what direction the bitching is coming from; other than that it's meet the new boss, same as the old boss; hope and change were just buzzwords.  
Patriot Act: great example.  Bush signed it: lefties pissed, righties mum.  Obama renewed it: righties pissed, lefties mum.  It's just a big game of thrones to these fucking people.  
I could go on and on with examples of partisan bulshittery, but I don't want this post to become a damned novel.

Why aren't people protesting more?  I think they're not paying attention.

Exactly!  War with Iraq, bad.  War with Iran, good.  WTF?

I agree that it's the same bullshit, just in a new color.

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