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Author Topic: R.I.P. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"  (Read 3647 times)

Asch

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Re: R.I.P. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2011, 10:08:36 pm »
Quote from: mandrina;21386
Civil unions aren't marriage. So actually, the military can recognise them if they so choose, since they are not actually dealt with in any federal way.


Yes and no. A lot of the language for benefits refers specifically to a spouse. There are a lot of debates and kinks to be worked out regarding spouse vs partner, two persons in a civil union are often not legally considered 'spouses'. It's a morass of legalese. Ideally DOMA will be banished to the shit heaps of history and render the entire moot.

sailor

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Re: R.I.P. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2011, 11:05:32 pm »
Quote from: Asch;21395
Ah well, either way when I was in the service and two persons were in a relationship if they weren't married they didn't legitimately cohabitate with the blessings of the service until they were married on base, barracks/dorms didn't matter. Just didn't happen unless you had an understanding room mate etc. But there was no official sanction.

Now, if you're wondering if housing will be segregated based on orientation, I doubt it.

 
I don't know when you were in, but when I was in or was working with the military, two opposite gender people didn't share a dorm or berthing, period.  Didn't matter if they were in a relationship or not. On small ships we had a few cases of the military having to remove a man or a woman to ensure that we didn't gender mix cabins.

It will be interesting to see what the new regs will be on non-married people in a relationship sharing dorms or berthing.

Asch

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Re: R.I.P. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2011, 11:20:52 pm »
Quote from: sailor;21415
I don't know when you were in, but when I was in or was working with the military, two opposite gender people didn't share a dorm or berthing, period.  Didn't matter if they were in a relationship or not. On small ships we had a few cases of the military having to remove a man or a woman to ensure that we didn't gender mix cabins.

It will be interesting to see what the new regs will be on non-married people in a relationship sharing dorms or berthing.

 

'02 - '06 and it wasn't necessarily sanctioned but our dorms were co-ed - not the rooms obviously - but I had male and female neighbors.

I honestly do not see why any of the regs would change unless someone makes a stink about orientation vs sex.

Asch

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Inca

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Re: R.I.P. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2011, 05:00:59 am »
Quote from: sailor;21314
Now the fun starts.  Apparently there are a ton of unknowns still to be worked out.  For example can a same-sex set of lovers live together?

 
Well, the 'fun' was always there. That the army didn't want to acknowledge and subsequently address it (and, as forcing things in the dark do, creating all sorts of grounds for secrets, coercion and abuse) doesn't mean that those issues are new.

sailor

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Re: R.I.P. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2011, 04:32:45 pm »
Quote from: Asch;21421
'02 - '06 and it wasn't necessarily sanctioned but our dorms were co-ed - not the rooms obviously - but I had male and female neighbors.

I honestly do not see why any of the regs would change unless someone makes a stink about orientation vs sex.

 
So gays get to live in the barracks (same room) with their boyfriend / girlfriend?  But straights don't get to live in the barracks (same room, not down the hall) with their boy or girl friend?

mandrina

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Re: R.I.P. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2011, 04:35:19 pm »
Quote from: sailor;21535
So gays get to live in the barracks (same room) with their boyfriend / girlfriend?  But straights don't get to live in the barracks (same room, not down the hall) with their boy or girl friend?

OMG, for once things might favor gays?  I'm horrified.

Every once in a while, the discriminatory law ends up inadvertantly benefitting the discriminated against.  NOt very often, but every once in a while
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 04:37:01 pm by mandrina »
Katrina

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Asch

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R.I.P. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2011, 05:24:22 pm »
Quote from: sailor;21535
So gays get to live in the barracks (same room) with their boyfriend / girlfriend?  But straights don't get to live in the barracks (same room, not down the hall) with their boy or girl friend?

Only if they're assigned. IME going TDY (I never deployed) billeting usually paired up similarly ranking personnel then went by gender. There is some wiggle room involved as far as room swaps etc. But it's not as though torn would be deliberately or excessively accommodating gay couples in the same unit (assuming they happened to be in the same unit in the first place. Occasionally someone will be loaned to another unit to go TDY or deploy if the other unit is short but again theres usually no special treatment aside from deference to rank.

But time will tell.

sailor

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Re: R.I.P. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2011, 09:25:38 pm »
Quote from: Asch;21545
Only if they're assigned. IME going TDY (I never deployed) billeting usually paired up similarly ranking personnel then went by gender. There is some wiggle room involved as far as room swaps etc. But it's not as though torn would be deliberately or excessively accommodating gay couples in the same unit (assuming they happened to be in the same unit in the first place. Occasionally someone will be loaned to another unit to go TDY or deploy if the other unit is short but again theres usually no special treatment aside from deference to rank.

But time will tell.

 
Time will tell.

The "logical" extension of the reqs would probably be a transfer for one of them at best.

Of note, the conservative news aggregation site and the 2 mil blogs I read hasn't bothered to cover this story except for one post about the Marines recruiting at a gay center in Oklahoma. The Marines were the only service to attend, although all services were invited. The recruiting was a bust.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/21/us/marine-recruiters-visit-gay-center-in-oklahoma.html

Asch

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Re: R.I.P. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2011, 09:31:12 pm »
Quote from: Asch;21545
Only if they're assigned. IME going TDY (I never deployed) billeting usually paired up similarly ranking personnel then went by gender. There is some wiggle room involved as far as room swaps etc. But it's not as though torn would be deliberately or excessively accommodating gay couples in the same unit (assuming they happened to be in the same unit in the first place. Occasionally someone will be loaned to another unit to go TDY or deploy if the other unit is short but again theres usually no special treatment aside from deference to rank.

But time will tell.

 
To clarify, persons were usually paired by rank and then gender, i.e. two staff sergeants of the same gender etc. *should really avoid posting from her phone*

Inca

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Re: R.I.P. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2011, 05:57:52 am »
Quote from: Asch;21577
To clarify, persons were usually paired by rank and then gender, i.e. two staff sergeants of the same gender etc. *should really avoid posting from her phone*

 
In a way that attention for separation by gender still strikes me as a bit odd. After all: you should be able to trust your fellow men / women with your life... you should be able to sleep next to them as well.
As a female, I wouldn't mind sharing with men, as long as it is in a situation where abuse clearly isn't tolerated. I expect every adult to be able to restrain themselves. If they are not able to restrain themselves, are we sure we want those people holding guns and making life-and-death-decisions?

(Oh and once more, not to asch but in general: the situations of people in a relationship bunked up together: could already have happened of course. Will have happened too. It's not that just because nobody asked and nobody told, things don't happen. Such a weird form of self delusion.)

victoreia

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Re: R.I.P. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2011, 06:42:45 pm »
Quote from: Inca;21626
In a way that attention for separation by gender still strikes me as a bit odd. After all: you should be able to trust your fellow men / women with your life... you should be able to sleep next to them as well.
As a female, I wouldn't mind sharing with men, as long as it is in a situation where abuse clearly isn't tolerated. I expect every adult to be able to restrain themselves. If they are not able to restrain themselves, are we sure we want those people holding guns and making life-and-death-decisions?


Heh. Unfortunately, that's not something they apparently check for, when they're recruiting. There are still many scandals about "hazing" of female recruits/soldiers/airmen/sailors, and stories of sexual assaults on female soldiers by their fellow soldiers while deployed.

I'm not sure if they're looking for certain personality types, where self-restraint isn't much of an issue, or if the basic training has something to do with it.

Quote
(Oh and once more, not to asch but in general: the situations of people in a relationship bunked up together: could already have happened of course. Will have happened too. It's not that just because nobody asked and nobody told, things don't happen. Such a weird form of self delusion.)

 
We Americans in particular seem to be really good at that. Personally, I blame our Puritan forefathers. :ashamed:
Do. Or do not. There is no try.  --Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back

We are star stuff. We are the universe, made manifest. --Ambassador Delenn, Babylon 5

sailor

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Re: R.I.P. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2011, 11:23:14 pm »
Quote from: victoreia;21711
Heh. Unfortunately, that's not something they apparently check for, when they're recruiting. There are still many scandals about "hazing" of female recruits/soldiers/airmen/sailors, and stories of sexual assaults on female soldiers by their fellow soldiers while deployed.

I'm not sure if they're looking for certain personality types, where self-restraint isn't much of an issue, or if the basic training has something to do with it.


 

You really want to take those stories with a grain of salt.  Last major investigation ended up with lots of women getting DD's.

Asch

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Re: R.I.P. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2011, 11:27:46 pm »
Quote from: sailor;21731
You really want to take those stories with a grain of salt.  Last major investigation ended up with lots of women getting DD's.

 
I had a sexist supervisor. The entire unit knew and no one did anything about it. He was blatant (I was too naive to realize sadly). There are false reports/reporters but it still happens.

Inca

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Re: R.I.P. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2011, 03:58:04 am »
Quote from: victoreia;21711
There are still many scandals about "hazing" of female recruits/soldiers/airmen/sailors, and stories of sexual assaults on female soldiers by their fellow soldiers while deployed.


Bound to be - otherwise they wouldn't be so terribly frightened about The Gays entering. (If you know you have an open, robust culture where those things don't happen much and are addressed properly, there wouldn't be much need to be so panicked about it.)

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