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Author Topic: Gay Danish Couples win right to marry in church  (Read 2627 times)

sailor

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Gay Danish Couples win right to marry in church
« on: June 09, 2012, 04:00:44 pm »
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/denmark/9317447/Gay-Danish-couples-win-right-to-marry-in-church.html

Quote
Homosexual couples in Denmark have won the right to get married in any church they choose, even though nearly one third of the country's priests have said they will refuse to carry out the ceremonies.


Norway is still trying to figure out what ceremony to use in it's churches.

Not clear if this only applies to the state churches or to all churches.

RandallS

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Re: Gay Danish Couples win right to marry in church
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2012, 05:26:11 pm »
Quote from: sailor;59309
Not clear if this only applies to the state churches or to all churches.

My guess (from the statement by the Bishop of Viborg mentioned in the article as warning that the new law risks "splitting the church") is that it only applies to state churches. While I'm sure that the far right in the US will try to use foreign events like this to scare people into thinking that their church could be forced to marry gays too that cannot happen in the US unless the First Amendment is modified and that would be a nearly impossible task.
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Altair

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Re: Gay Danish Couples win right to marry in church
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2012, 11:11:24 am »
Quote from: sailor;59309
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/denmark/9317447/Gay-Danish-couples-win-right-to-marry-in-church.html



Norway is still trying to figure out what ceremony to use in it's churches.

Not clear if this only applies to the state churches or to all churches.


Go, Denmark!
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mandrina

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Re: Gay Danish Couples win right to marry in church
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2012, 11:27:28 am »
Quote from: RandallS;59316
My guess (from the statement by the Bishop of Viborg mentioned in the article as warning that the new law risks "splitting the church") is that it only applies to state churches. While I'm sure that the far right in the US will try to use foreign events like this to scare people into thinking that their church could be forced to marry gays too that cannot happen in the US unless the First Amendment is modified and that would be a nearly impossible task.

 
Ah, the dangers to the church of taking state money.  The churches in the US should take note.
Katrina

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Altair

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Re: Gay Danish Couples win right to marry in church
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2012, 02:39:37 pm »
Quote from: mandrina;59534
Ah, the dangers to the church of taking state money.  The churches in the US should take note.


Yup. That's playing out here in the U.S. as well, esp. as more and more states give legal recognition to same-sex couples. The Catholic Church in Illinois is a prime example:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/23/illinois-bishop-says-stat_n_933996.html

This, for me, hits the nail on the head: "No citizen has a recognized legal right to a contract with the government."
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
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sailor

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Re: Gay Danish Couples win right to marry in church
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2012, 03:09:47 am »
Quote from: Altair;59542
Yup. That's playing out here in the U.S. as well, esp. as more and more states give legal recognition to same-sex couples. The Catholic Church in Illinois is a prime example:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/23/illinois-bishop-says-stat_n_933996.html

This, for me, hits the nail on the head: "No citizen has a recognized legal right to a contract with the government."

 

On a related note:
Is Gay Parenting Bad for the Kids?
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/302319/gay-parenting-bad-kids-charles-c-w-cooke?pg=1

MadZealot

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Re: Gay Danish Couples win right to marry in church
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2012, 06:13:35 am »
Quote from: sailor;59611

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/302319/gay-parenting-bad-kids-charles-c-w-cooke?pg=1

Says a lot.
But at the same time... says very little.
Spider Man 3 never happened. And Epstein didn't kill himself.

Skyth

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Re: Gay Danish Couples win right to marry in church
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2012, 08:03:50 am »
Quote from: sailor;59611
On a related note:
Is Gay Parenting Bad for the Kids?
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/302319/gay-parenting-bad-kids-charles-c-w-cooke?pg=1

 
At least the article points out the major flaw in the study.  That it's really about instability versus stability.  It would be interesting to have a study comparing children from unwed teenage mothers to children brought up in a stable (married) homosexual couple.

One thing it mentioned is that the majority of children studied are in gay-unfriendly areas.  The stigma (And attached bullying) of having a homosexual parent in that area could have a traumatic effect on a child and could also be the cause of being lower-performing.

RandallS

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Re: Gay Danish Couples win right to marry in church
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2012, 08:07:37 am »
Quote from: sailor;59611
Is Gay Parenting Bad for the Kids?

Depends on the parents, I suspect. Just as it does for hetero parents, single parents, foster parents, etc.

It will also depend on what the opinions on what is good/bad for kids the study authors have. I once saw a study by a Christian group that "showed" that being raised by non-Christian parents was bad for children -- and by the standards set (about half were things like knowledge of the Bible, being saved, etc.) I suppose the study was likely quite accurate.
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sailor

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Re: Gay Danish Couples win right to marry in church
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2012, 08:56:11 am »
Quote from: Skyth;59673
At least the article points out the major flaw in the study.  That it's really about instability versus stability.  It would be interesting to have a study comparing children from unwed teenage mothers to children brought up in a stable (married) homosexual couple.

One thing it mentioned is that the majority of children studied are in gay-unfriendly areas.  The stigma (And attached bullying) of having a homosexual parent in that area could have a traumatic effect on a child and could also be the cause of being lower-performing.

 
Uh, no. You would need to compare kids in homes of stable gay couples with kids from stable straight couples. Then control for social and economic stuff.

From a stability point of view, lesbians with kids are worse than gay men with kids; although the sexual abuse numbers mentioned in the article need amplification.

Uh, you are presuming that most of the US is anti-gay. The article only said that they were not concentrated in the few coastal cities with large gay populations (SF, NYC).  Doesn't say they were mostly in hicksville, TX as opposed to say Austin, TX or Moonshine, GA as opposed to the Atlanta Georgia metro area.

Skyth

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Re: Gay Danish Couples win right to marry in church
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2012, 09:45:59 am »
Quote from: sailor;59683
Uh, no. You would need to compare kids in homes of stable gay couples with kids from stable straight couples. Then control for social and economic stuff.


That would have the most apples to apples comparison.  I was just saying that it would be interesting seeing the results of having a study as biased but in the other direction.

Quote
From a stability point of view, lesbians with kids are worse than gay men with kids;


I read the other thing from the article.  Could be wrong though, but I thought it said that no children stayed full time with gay parents, but some did with lesbian parents.

Quote
Uh, you are presuming that most of the US is anti-gay. The article only said that they were not concentrated in the few coastal cities with large gay populations (SF, NYC).  Doesn't say they were mostly in hicksville, TX as opposed to say Austin, TX or Moonshine, GA as opposed to the Atlanta Georgia metro area.


In other words, the couples that lived in gay-friendly areas don't have as many kids. That means that more kids are in non-gay friendly areas.  Besides,  I'd say it's reasonable to say that a kid in Atlanta with homosexual parents is more likely to be bullied and have the bullying be more severe than the same kid in San Fransisco.
 
This is besides the fact that the anti-homosexual movement will make life more stressful for the couples in non-gay friendly areas which will lead to less stability in the relationships.  You could probably do the same study with any unpopular minority and have the kids come from a less stable home and come out worse off.

mandrina

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Re: Gay Danish Couples win right to marry in church
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2012, 03:59:53 pm »
Quote from: sailor;59683
Uh, no. You would need to compare kids in homes of stable gay couples with kids from stable straight couples. Then control for social and economic stuff.

From a stability point of view, lesbians with kids are worse than gay men with kids; although the sexual abuse numbers mentioned in the article need amplification.

Uh, you are presuming that most of the US is anti-gay. The article only said that they were not concentrated in the few coastal cities with large gay populations (SF, NYC).  Doesn't say they were mostly in hicksville, TX as opposed to say Austin, TX or Moonshine, GA as opposed to the Atlanta Georgia metro area.

 I can't really say it the way I want to, but most of the US isn't really gayfriendly.  Gay tolerant is the best I can come up with.  not accepting, but tolerant.  Tolerant is all you need to get samesex marriage, but not enough to
not have to deal with extra stuff.  Just not quite as much extra stuff as they would in a gayunfriendly area.  
I think that makes sense. let me go think on it awhile.
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MadZealot

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Re: Gay Danish Couples win right to marry in church
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2012, 04:05:10 pm »
Quote from: mandrina;59741
I can't really say it the way I want to, but most of the US isn't really gayfriendly.  Gay tolerant is the best I can come up with.  not accepting, but tolerant.  Tolerant is all you need to get samesex marriage, but not enough to
not have to deal with extra stuff.  Just not quite as much extra stuff as they would in a gayunfriendly area.  
I think that makes sense. let me go think on it awhile.


Hey, I get it.
Spider Man 3 never happened. And Epstein didn't kill himself.

sailor

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Re: Gay Danish Couples win right to marry in church
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2012, 04:45:26 pm »
Quote from: Skyth;59696


I read the other thing from the article.  Could be wrong though, but I thought it said that no children stayed full time with gay parents, but some did with lesbian parents.



In other words, the couples that lived in gay-friendly areas don't have as many kids. That means that more kids are in non-gay friendly areas.  Besides,  I'd say it's reasonable to say that a kid in Atlanta with homosexual parents is more likely to be bullied and have the bullying be more severe than the same kid in San Fransisco.
 
This is besides the fact that the anti-homosexual movement will make life more stressful for the couples in non-gay friendly areas which will lead to less stability in the relationships.  You could probably do the same study with any unpopular minority and have the kids come from a less stable home and come out worse off.

 
The lesbians and stability integrates info from this article and one I didn't link to.  The break up rate for lesbians is huge, it dwarfs the hetero-sexual divorce rate, while gay men are the stablest.  

But yes, the above article mentions that the longest time kids spent with a gay parent was 2 kids who spent something like 3 years with their lesbian mother and her wife / lover.

Skyth

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Re: Gay Danish Couples win right to marry in church
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2012, 05:28:13 pm »
Quote from: sailor;59753
The lesbians and stability integrates info from this article and one I didn't link to.  The break up rate for lesbians is huge, it dwarfs the hetero-sexual divorce rate, while gay men are the stablest.  

 
How does it compare to hetero relationships though?  Comparing break-up rate to divorce rate is not an apples to apples comparison.

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