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Author Topic: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car  (Read 5191 times)

Juniperberry

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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #60 on: February 07, 2013, 09:02:06 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;95570
Question of the day.

Lots of conjectures and what-ifs have been offered up but none of them have really excused or justified the cop ride for the colored-in shoes.

 
So, I read the Mississippi State DoE handbook and each school has an assigned law enforcement officer that acts as a liaison on campus, providing counseling, security, enforcement of school policy, and a partnership with parents and administration. This liaison would be a known presence at the school and have the equipment, resources and training to deal with children and their psychological development.

Secondly, as to my comment that I think its abusive to teach a distrust of LE...all I remember about this is from my time in foster care but I did find an article concerning Texas Child Welfare Guidelines. In it it states that a parent that willingly instills a distrust in law enforcement is seen as an "unfit" parent and the child may be removed from the home. Hopefully this is judged case by case. I'm sure in my situation it would be deemed inappropriate.

http://trueslant.com/stephenwebster/2010/03/30/tx-county-teaching-kids-government-is-out-to-harm-them-makes-parents-unsuitable/
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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #61 on: February 07, 2013, 09:06:16 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;95570
Question of the day.

Lots of conjectures and what-ifs have been offered up but none of them have really excused or justified the cop ride for the colored-in shoes.

 
And I'm finding it very disturbing how many people are noting the info not given in the linked article (it's true, lots of info not provided) and going straight to the assumption that the info not given must exonerate or at least mitigate the authorities' actions.

In a state whose schools have a long and ugly history w/r/t racism and classism, that doesn't seem to me like a sound assumption.  And it's certainly not "neutral middle ground".

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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #62 on: February 07, 2013, 09:25:56 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;95599
Secondly, as to my comment that I think its abusive to teach a distrust of LE...all I remember about this is from my time in foster care but I did find an article concerning Texas Child Welfare Guidelines. In it it states that a parent that willingly instills a distrust in law enforcement is seen as an "unfit" parent and the child may be removed from the home. Hopefully this is judged case by case. I'm sure in my situation it would be deemed inappropriate.

http://trueslant.com/stephenwebster/2010/03/30/tx-county-teaching-kids-government-is-out-to-harm-them-makes-parents-unsuitable/

 
But I think the question is, are the official rules even relevant in cases where the entire point is that the people involved are not protected by the official rules?  

I mean, personally, yes, if I had kids I would teach them to trust law enforcement.  It's very rational for me to do that; I'm white and middle-class.  I would want my hypothetical children to use the resources available to them to keep them safe.  

But that doesn't mean that I would encourage Valentine to teach her children the same thing.  Our situations are different.

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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #63 on: February 07, 2013, 09:28:05 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;95599

Secondly, as to my comment that I think its abusive to teach a distrust of LE...all I remember about this is from my time in foster care but I did find an article concerning Texas Child Welfare Guidelines. In it it states that a parent that willingly instills a distrust in law enforcement is seen as an "unfit" parent and the child may be removed from the home. Hopefully this is judged case by case. I'm sure in my situation it would be deemed inappropriate.


 
I was raised that if you need help call the Fire Department, they got there in 3 minutes or less. The Police were known to take 15 minutes or more, if they came at all.  When they did come most likely a nightstick, or arrest was the outcome.

Now every time I leave the house, I do not know if I will be shot by one of the 'trusted' police officers.  I am a Black man living in NYC and it is a real fear.

For me to teach the young a wariness of Law Enforcement is a must.  Mistrusting them is to be done on a officer by officer case, unless there are two or more working together.
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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #64 on: February 07, 2013, 09:28:26 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;95601
And I'm finding it very disturbing how many people are noting the info not given in the linked article (it's true, lots of info not provided) and going straight to the assumption that the info not given must exonerate or at least mitigate the authorities' actions.

In a state whose schools have a long and ugly history w/r/t racism and classism, that doesn't seem to me like a sound assumption.  And it's certainly not "neutral middle ground".

 
Yep.
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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #65 on: February 07, 2013, 09:40:06 pm »
Quote from: Snowdrop;95607
I mean, personally, yes, if I had kids I would teach them to trust law enforcement.  It's very rational for me to do that; I'm white and middle-class.  I would want my hypothetical children to use the resources available to them to keep them safe.

I'm white and I would not teach anyone to automatically trust LE. I would suggest that wary trust is about the best one should automatically give. And if the officer acts "squiggly" in any way -- up the wariness factor. I've worked with a number of police officers over the years and while most are good people trying hard to do their job and do it right, a sizable minority are racist and/or on power trips and a not insignificant number are truly bad cops. Small town forces tend to have far fewer truly bad cops than major cities in my experience but, at least in Texas, tend to have a higher percentage of their force who are racist and/or on power trips or simply are not very professional (often because they have less training and less experience than larger town/city officers).
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 09:40:43 pm by RandallS »
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Annie Roonie

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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #66 on: February 07, 2013, 09:45:29 pm »
Quote from: Jack;95488
I think assuming that a five year old is more likely to be a gang member than from a poor family is a racist assumption, especially when there are no details given to support that reading. It's like reading the mention of a misfired peanut leading to assault charges and saying "Well, maybe they also had guns!" It's assuming that the child of color is capable of the most egregious possible interpretation while the (probably white) administration is given the benefit of the doubt.

I didn't make that assumption. I proposed an alternative take. And I wasn't thinking in that scenario that the kid of 5 would be the one actually making the display. Kids get used sometimes. It's sick. It's what some people have to deal with. And unfortunately seeing this happen has provided me with the dubious ability to see other perspectives and possible scenarios.

There aren't enough details in the article to support much in the way of anything but sadness that something like it happened IMO.

I was hoping not to be called a racist because that hurts. It's not really true either. I am sure I have some remaining things in my invisible knapsack, but I actively try to find them. You can't know my circumstance or how open my community and I are about things like racism, so I will let you know a little to hopefully put your mind a little more at ease if possible. I am called and I do call others on racist assumptions when they arise in and out of work.  It happens here frequently because race is a big topic here. We are a very diverse place not just racially, but economically, physically, cognitively etc..

We work it out. We have too. We are all we have here. And we're pretty damned awesome IMO even if outsiders are a little bigoted about us.

I appreciate your bravery in calling me out on what you think was a racist assumption to make. I can't do anything about what you feel or think or suspect about me though. And I was thinking today that if I was being called a racist by a person who is passionate about social justice and not cause more damage, what would be the best way to respond?

I have come to this: I hope like hell you keep doing what you're doing and that your passion drives you to continue to make a difference in the world. I think the world needs it.

 
Quote from: Jack;95488
And I am glad that your experience apparently allows you to assume that all children can be afford shoes.

I did not make that assumption either. I also did not assume that alternative shoes were offered or that other options were not considered, because I don't know if they were.

My experience has led me to assume that some kids are going to need things they cannot afford. All kinds of things. All kinds of kids. And yeah, I spend more than I should ameliorating those needs where I can. My experience has also led me to make another assumption and that is that kids will achieve. So I spend more time than most (I can afford it being without other major obligations family wise) offering opportunities for kids to achieve in ways that will empower them to have more choices in the future. Sometimes, this means doing things off the radar because things like DCs can screw things up royally for some kids.

But that's about all I have come to assume because other assumptions always come back to bite folks in the bum. When the goal is the success of a child, and I assume something that impedes that success, the failure is more than doubled. The ripple effects hurt everyone. It doesn't hurt anyone to have needed things stocked up and needed time and attention available though, so my two bigs, IMO, are pretty innocuous.

Quote from: Jack;95488
I respect that it is hard to provide a safe environment for kids in areas with a lot of gang violence, but in the absence of evidence either way, is it fair to assume the child is likely to be a gang member?

Nope. And I didn't make that assumption. However, I did suggest that others could have. And yeah, that would be terrible to assume I agree.  That's why I wrote "dismal perspective."

Quote from: Jack;95488
(What if it was a while child sent home for a bit of white showing through on his sneakers? Would it be fair to say that his parents are probably KKK members trying to intimidate the parents of his black classmates?)

Nope. I don't think that would be a good assumption.

Quote from: Jack;95488
And yes, I'm sure my lived experience colors my opinions too. The only person who's ever pulled a gun on me was a cop, after all.

I think that is pretty good and am glad you have not had to face any other life threatening situations personally.

I have and do face threats personally probably every couple of months. I'm not soft and I am not trying to be oblivious either. And I'm not jaded to the point that I make assumptions, but I, along with my neighbors herd any kids we can to safe place when there are gunshots. I've lost students to bullets, to things I cannot discuss still, to ...

Well, I said it was a dubious ability to see dismal possible scenarios and it is. That being said, it also has been very valuable.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 09:46:14 pm by Annie Roonie »

Juniperberry

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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #67 on: February 07, 2013, 09:48:24 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;95601
And I'm finding it very disturbing how many people are noting the info not given in the linked article (it's true, lots of info not provided) and going straight to the assumption that the info not given must exonerate or at least mitigate the authorities' actions.

In a state whose schools have a long and ugly history w/r/t racism and classism, that doesn't seem to me like a sound assumption.  And it's certainly not "neutral middle ground".

Sunflower

I don't think that's what happening at all. As a parent of school-aged children I can't make emotional decisions. When my son was bullied by a seventh grader (he's in fifth), school.policy required both my son and the bully to face disciplinary action. I wanted to call the principal an idiot and go off on him. I can't afford to react that way but have to try and understand the school's reasoning and work with it. My approach  to the article was simply what I do at home.

I send my heart out there alone to school everyday in the shape of four kids. I need to work from the assumption that educators truly try to do what's best for children or I'd be insane.

Picking apart this article wasn't because I don't have kids, its because I do.


If I seemed to be encouraging Valentine to raise her kids in the manner that callously ignored her reality then I sincerely apologize.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 09:48:59 pm by Juniperberry »
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2013, 09:51:54 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;95611
I'm white and I would not teach anyone to automatically trust LE. I would suggest that wary trust is about the best one should automatically give. And if the officer acts "squiggly" in any way -- up the wariness factor. I've worked with a number of police officers over the years and while most are good people trying hard to do their job and do it right, a sizable minority are racist and/or on power trips and a not insignificant number are truly bad cops. Small town forces tend to have far fewer truly bad cops than major cities in my experience but, at least in Texas, tend to have a higher percentage of their force who are racist and/or on power trips or simply are not very professional (often because they have less training and less experience than larger town/city officers).

 
Fair enough --- I'm from the suburbs, where in all seriousness, you rarely even see law enforcement outside of people getting pulled over for speeding.  They may be very professional or may be horrible; I wouldn't know.  But I would rather that my children try to find a police officer or someone else who is in a position of authority if they were, for instance, lost (which is what I think Juniperberry was referencing?) instead of avoiding them and wandering away.  I mean, it's possible that they would turn out to be on a power trip and mistreat my children, but it's possible that anyone they encountered could be on a power trip.

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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #69 on: February 07, 2013, 09:57:45 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;95601
And I'm finding it very disturbing how many people are noting the info not given in the linked article (it's true, lots of info not provided) and going straight to the assumption that the info not given must exonerate or at least mitigate the authorities' actions.

 
However, I haven't seen anyone make that assumption.  There have been people saying that the details that were (intentionally?) left out might exonerate the authorities actions so we shouldn't be so quick to automatically break out the torches and pitchforks until we know the entire story.

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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #70 on: February 07, 2013, 09:58:09 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;95599
So, I read the Mississippi State DoE handbook and each school has an assigned law enforcement officer that acts as a liaison on campus, providing counseling, security, enforcement of school policy, and a partnership with parents and administration. This liaison would be a known presence at the school and have the equipment, resources and training to deal with children and their psychological development.    
Well we have a stated policy, but how well is it implemented and enforced?  That's a different question.  Knowing that these officers are expected to be qualified to deal with small children gives us a sort of litmus for evaluating the officer's actions (and specific standards to which they should be held), however that doesn't conflate with the decisions or actions taken by school/district leadership.  

We do have more information on the latter.  Within the article cited by the OP is a link to an article detailing school disciplines in Lauderdale County MS.  An investigation uncovered kids being incarcerated for " ‘offenses’ such as dress code violations, flatulence, profanity, and disrespect"; further, that black and disabled kids were disproportionately penalized.  

Granted, the conjectures and hypotheticals offered up may or may not be applicable in the single case at the start of this thread, they are hardly relevant to the actions taken by school "leaders", given that (at least part of) MS has a systemic school-to-prison-pipeline.  Some might even say a systemic police state problem.  

Quote
In it it states that a parent that willingly instills a distrust in law enforcement is seen as an "unfit" parent and the child may be removed from the home.
And there's nothing police-state about that at all.  Face it, automatic trust of LE is not going to be realistic for kids in all places; a black kid in South L.A., for instance.  Hell, there have been enough horror stories here in So Cal about cops going wild (google the Kelly Thomas beating in Fullerton) that even I'm a bit wary of a uniform now.  Even right now, there's a huge manhunt for a cop-gone-wild who had apparently murdered two OC residents and has a manifesto to murder a few more.  His truck was found about thirty miles from my house, but the crazy bastard could be anywhere.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 10:02:28 pm by MadZealot »
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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #71 on: February 07, 2013, 10:13:40 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;95613
If I seemed to be encouraging Valentine to raise her kids in the manner that callously ignored her reality then I sincerely apologize.


I'd like to say sorry to Valentine too.  

I'm sorry you had to experience such horrible shit at the hands of such horrible fucking people.  :mad:
Really.
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Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #72 on: February 07, 2013, 11:33:33 pm »
Quote from: victoreia;95326
Cops nab five-year-old wearing wrong color shoes to school

This comes under the "Give me an f'ing break!" category.

Aside from the absolute ridiculousness of penalizing the kid for not having the right color shoes :eek: (not to mention traumatizing him), what a waste of tax-payers' money and police resources!

:hdsk:

I don't know the source of this information in the article. I don't know if any of it is true, but I would be demanding answers if I lived in that community, whatever community it happened in, IF it happened.

Good reporting requires at a minimum answering the questions who, what, when, where, and how (why can get into editorialization). Unfortunately we have none of the basic information here. None of this can be independently verified. Thus I am suspicious that it is made up, a hoax.

But hey it is on the Internet so it MUST be true, right?


..
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 11:35:35 pm by Myrth »

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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #73 on: February 07, 2013, 11:37:53 pm »
Quote from: Myrth;95631
But hey it is on the Internet so it MUST be true, right? ..

If it's really from a Mississippi NAACP report, it's a little more than a garden-variety hoax.

Brina
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 11:44:23 pm by yewberry »

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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #74 on: February 08, 2013, 01:49:56 pm »
D
Quote from: MadZealot;95617
Well we have a stated policy, but how well is it implemented and enforced?  That's a different question.  Knowing that these officers are expected to be qualified to deal with small children gives us a sort of litmus for evaluating the officer's actions (and specific standards to which they should be held), however that doesn't conflate with the decisions or actions taken by school/district leadership.  

We do have more information on the latter.  Within the article cited by the OP is a link to an article detailing school disciplines in Lauderdale County MS.  An investigation uncovered kids being incarcerated for " ‘offenses’ such as dress code violations, flatulence, profanity, and disrespect"; further, that black and disabled kids were disproportionately penalized.  

Granted, the conjectures and hypotheticals offered up may or may not be applicable in the single case at the start of this thread, they are hardly relevant to the actions taken by school "leaders", given that (at least part of) MS has a systemic school-to-prison-pipeline.  Some might even say a systemic police state problem.  


My intentions for questioning the article and posting the LE guidelines isn't to clear anyone, it was a search for context. It was just so bizarre. Now that I have an understanding of what occurred and why, I went back and read some more articles. I think sensationalising the 'arrest' is unfortunate because the situation on its own is shameful. Apparently the shoes were black, it was the red and white brand logo that was colored in. And that's ground zero: whether his mother took him home, the principal, or he had inschool suspension, they disrupted his education over something so easily fixed. Before, I could understand a teacher not having time to color in a shoe, but a small label? The zero tolerance and resulting disciplinary measures do seem unnecessarily harsh.


Quote
And there's nothing police-state about that at all.  Face it, automatic trust of LE is not going to be realistic for kids in all places; a black kid in South L.A., for instance.  Hell, there have been enough horror stories here in So Cal about cops going wild (google the Kelly Thomas beating in Fullerton) that even I'm a bit wary of a uniform now.  Even right now, there's a huge manhunt for a cop-gone-wild who had apparently murdered two OC residents and has a manifesto to murder a few more.  His truck was found about thirty miles from my house, but the crazy bastard could be anywhere.

 
I never said it wouldn't be traumatizing for some. But if my blonde, blue-eyed daughter went to school and told her teacher that mommy and daddy said the cops and government were bad then we could be flagged as potential homeland terrorists, nazi extremists, or meth heads.

If I say America is becoming a police state then a large majority of people will assume I'm a racist that thinks Obama is going to take over America. My facebook is filled with posts about socialism, the Tea Party, gun control, Monsato, "Obama is going to take our guns", "the Republicans are idiots that believed the lies of Fox News and the Media". I'm sorry, but the world has gone a bit crazy, and I'm going to be very careful about what I consider, believe, and repeat. I'm exremely wary right now of my own kneejerk reactions because everything seems to be politicized and manipulated specifically for that reaction.

Meanwhile, I'm just trying to do whats right for my kids and basing the majority of my decisions on whats best for them in the present moment. Thats my main priority. Thats every parents main priority, and it sounds like the mom tried her best to follow policy and the school refused to even work with the parents. School age children shouldn't be treated like little criminals, I agree. That teachers can't show the least bit of compassion and refused the child an education for the day over a label, when clearly the mother was mostly successful and cooperative in following school policy, is heartbreaking.

And if things are that bad on a daily basis then something needs to be fixed. And I assume its at the state level. Holmes county's (location of event) population is almost 90% black, leaving one to assume that most school employees are AA, so I think the racism in this case is trickled down. Teachers worry about their jobs, have to follow ridiculous guidelines, it gets passed to the kids, etc. But I don't know, I don't know what its like. Thats just an assumption which could be completely ignorant of the situation in Mississippi.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

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* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

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