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Author Topic: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car  (Read 4694 times)

Fireof9

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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2013, 09:39:02 pm »
Quote from: victoreia;95326
Cops nab five-year-old wearing wrong color shoes to school


 
I am beyond words, if someone did that to one of my kids, I would be the next one in a cop car I think.
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Annie Roonie

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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2013, 09:47:08 pm »
Quote from: victoreia;95326
Cops nab five-year-old wearing wrong color shoes to school

I agree with the idea of a more graduated approach to discipline. Zero tolerance policies should not be used for people who have yet to control their own basic bodily functions. (I do not know if zero tolerance policies ever really work long term for anything.)

That being said, their using this example doesn't do anything constructive to solve Mississippi's problems. It grabs the attention, inspires anger and then opposition to any standards. Zero tolerance is coming in then instead of going out. Both suck.

It was a mistake to not graduate the discipline as well as differentiate it for special needs even later on. (Differentiation is promoted far and wide for teaching academics and it works, so it makes no sense to me why it is not employed for teaching other things within the same environments.)

However, the report says: It also claims black students are affected by harsh discipline procedures at a much greater rate than white students, and cites a study of more than a hundred Mississippi school districts that finds for every one white student who is given an out-of-school suspension, three black students are suspended, even though black students comprise just half of the student population.

And this is meant to suggest racism and that may not be the case. (It is a tactic not necessarily a reality and certainly not supported by any data in the article.) Unless there is some other data (footage studied of students entering buildings or in hallways - anybody want that?) to suggest that white students are getting lesser punishment for breaking the codes or getting free passes, there's no racism. It would be just as inappropriate to use the numbers given in this quote to suggest that white students are better at obeying rules. The numbers would seem to support that, but again, they could be getting different treatment. Without that knowledge, making a case for racism is a red herring that functions to distract from the work that needs to be done.

Doing the work can seem also like discrimination. For example, to fight gang violence and keep schools safe, it would be appropriate to target gang activity (one of the biggest early reasons for strict dress codes). However, it's not that easy and it often appears on the surface to be racism because the root issues tend to involve people with low income; less early education; fewer resources; more pressing priorities (like food, and basic necessities); and more reasonable distrust of systems that have historically been discriminatory, not to mention those who seek out surrogate families for emotional support. Right now in many parts of the US that population is still overwhelmingly peopled by minorities.

So if a school targets gangs, it can look like they are targeting minorities and that's seen as discrimination and evil but more safe. But if they target the root problems and end up dealing with the same exact populations, it is seen as okay (but as very close to evil by fiscal conservatives who oppose funding efforts to deal with root problems), but is much less safe.

Someone with an eye toward gang activity might see the red of a sneaker peeking through a 5 year old's shoes as a sign of gang membership. And I hate to say this as it breaks my heart, many gangs have no age limits. Yes, 5 year olds and younger are not let alone by them. Some baby showers have been gang themed.

It's disgusting what happened to this little one. What is more disgusting is the idea that someone outside of the school in the child's life may already have introduced the child to a destructive cycle that schools hope to break, but get blasted with almost every attempt to do so. It may not be the case in this instance, but it could be easily. (For those unaware of dress code breaking tactics - showing an attempt to adhere is often thought to get one off the hook while still having the cache of flying colors to intimidate peers. Thus the necessity of strictness.) Those kinds of details are not going to make the press. Some school admins that I know would rather take the public hit of outcries than make an entire family suffer the public humiliation of naming them as gang makers or bad parents. A ride in a police car could be construed many ways. Telling you that you come from a bad home can only be construed in one and that can be far more traumatizing an outcome. But that is only another way to see the situation as given (which is understandably lacking in information).

There are too many unknowns in the article and the report linked for me to get knee jerky about it. I've seen harmful and effective discipline strategies, often they are the same exact thing just with different students. I do not know what Mississippi's public schools are dealing with, but I do know given the achievement data, they are beyond desperate. I hope they do take the advice of the NAACP (which is not an organization without its own discrimination problems) and the ACLU and begin to graduate their discipline policies while incorporating other preventative tactics.

I also hope there will be some funding to do these things. Unfunded mandates are the bane of all public education and seldom ever accomplish the intended goals to any degree of acceptance. They need funds to address root causes, and the catch 22 of it all is that they have to show (with test data usually) that they are already successful at doing so in order to get the monies.

From a dismal perspective, kid with red peeking through shoes could keep kid with blue ties distracted and kids without any ties worried about far more vital things than academics. So if nothing is done, goodbye academic achievement, goodbye funding and hello same old cycle.

Ugh, I hate when littles are used this way.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 09:56:13 pm by Annie Roonie »

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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2013, 10:16:01 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;95390
I'd like to believe that while the system may need improvement, that the teachers and administrators are still coming from a place of good. The wording of the article is clearly meant to incite outrage-- "nab" is most likely the least accurate description of events, for example. And no where is the statement that the punishment was to "teach them a lesson" attributed to anyone at the school.

These articles also don't provide a history of events. I have no way of knowing if there was an initial warning given, if there were several, if the mother was belligerent or a victim. There just isn't much to base an informed decision on. So I'm leaving room for the possibility that this isn't as drastic as it sounds and that the schools are trying their best.

So a) I'm saying there may have been good cause but we don't know and b) --as a side note-- that I disagree that riding in a police car is automatically traumatizing. If this discussion is about the correlation between race and discipline and I missed that, then I apologize for misunderstanding. I thought it was just about this specific event.

 
See, I understand what you're saying, and I think it's completely plausible that the administrators were trying to do the right thing.  The thing is . . . realistically, this accomplishes nothing.  

Let's say the mother was being belligerent and refusing to comply --- is parental stubbornness a good reason to call the police?  Sometimes parents can be stubborn to the point of insanity, but ultimately, no one has actually done anything wrong here.  If the administrators have allowed one belligerent parent to rile them so much that they felt the need to call in law enforcement to send a message, they're probably in the wrong line of work.  

This is the problem with zero tolerance policies --- since they're basically unenforceable by normal means if someone refuses to comply, you do end up having to do things like call the cops to take kids home.

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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2013, 10:36:18 pm »
Quote from: Snowdrop;95404
See, I understand what you're saying, and I think it's completely plausible that the administrators were trying to do the right thing.  The thing is . . . realistically, this accomplishes nothing.  

Let's say the mother was being belligerent and refusing to comply --- is parental stubbornness a good reason to call the police?  Sometimes parents can be stubborn to the point of insanity, but ultimately, no one has actually done anything wrong here.  If the administrators have allowed one belligerent parent to rile them so much that they felt the need to call in law enforcement to send a message, they're probably in the wrong line of work.  

This is the problem with zero tolerance policies --- since they're basically unenforceable by normal means if someone refuses to comply, you do end up having to do things like call the cops to take kids home.


This is why that article isn't enough. I'm not sure if  it's a case of  the school "calling the police" on the child (doesn't sound like it to me), or the school utilizing the police to safely transport the child home because he wasn't allowed on property outside of dresscode. We only have minimal information from that article and no sources.  Zero tolerance means the boy can't be on school property, did the mother refuse to remove her child from school grounds and they made that call? For one, they would have had to notify the mother that he was being taken off school grounds. If not, then that's an illegal action and far, far worse. So she should have had been made aware that that was going to occur. Which in itseld brings up a million questions about what actually happened rather then what's on the surface of that article. And I'm not ready to judge these educators based on the little we know.
 
Annie Roonie that was a great post.
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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2013, 12:07:56 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;95390
So a) I'm saying there may have been good cause but we don't know and b) --as a side note-- that I disagree that riding in a police car is automatically traumatizing. If this discussion is about the correlation between race and discipline and I missed that, then I apologize for misunderstanding. I thought it was just about this specific event.

 
Quote from: Annie Roonie;95396
Ugh, I hate when littles are used this way.


Juniperberry, Annie Roonie, thank you both for a clearer look at the situation.  I understand where you both are coming from with the lack of better details, JuniperBerry and a glimpse at the inside of the educators POV, Annie.  I'm willing to admit that my reaction was rather knee-jerky and based primarily upon my POV as a parent rather than an educator.  That said, I still find the whole situation tragic and thank the gods above for homeschooling.
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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2013, 12:24:30 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;95390


So a) I'm saying there may have been good cause but we don't know and b) --as a side note-- that I disagree that riding in a police car is automatically traumatizing. If this discussion is about the correlation between race and discipline and I missed that, then I apologize for misunderstanding. I thought it was just about this specific event.

 
IMO taking putting a five year old in a police car, for whatever the reason  traumatizing.

I my neighborhood, someone getting out of a police car, should not expect to live long.
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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2013, 12:50:23 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;95390
There were a lot of sites that mentioned communism, police states .....  
Hyperbolic, maybe, but the "police state" remark hits pretty close, imo.  This is the kind of thing you expect when people in charge have more power than sense.

Quote
These articles also don't provide a history of events. I have no way of knowing if there was an initial warning given, if there were several, if the mother was belligerent or a victim. There just isn't much to base an informed decision on. So I'm leaving room for the possibility that this isn't as drastic as it sounds and that the schools are trying their best.

So a) I'm saying there may have been good cause but we don't know and b) --as a side note-- that I disagree that riding in a police car is automatically traumatizing. If this discussion is about the correlation between race and discipline and I missed that, then I apologize for misunderstanding. I thought it was just about this specific event.
All the above could be possible, would that justify making a 5 year old child ride in the back of a police cruiser?  I think Randall's comments are spot on.
It might not be traumatizing for adults like us, but I think a small child would be strongly freaked out by that-- because, you know, that's what cops do to bad people.  Multiply the trauma if the kid's punishment was racially motivated, as the article seems to suggest.  (Strangely, though, the article doesn't mention the kid's ethnicity.....)
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 12:54:54 am by MadZealot »
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Juniperberry

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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2013, 12:55:00 am »
Quote from: mlr52;95427
IMO taking putting a five year old in a police car, for whatever the reason  traumatizing.

I my neighborhood, someone getting out of a police car, should not expect to live long.

 
If a five year old would be murdered for just being in a police car, I imagine that being caught wearing opposing gang colors on his shoes could be even worse. It really just seems to highlight the need for a safe environment and strict precautionary measures.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2013, 01:01:06 am »
Quote from: Annie Roonie;95396
Without that knowledge, making a case for racism is a red herring that functions to distract from the work that needs to be done.


http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/08/30/770501/study-black-defendants-are-at-least-30-more-likely-to-be-imprisoned-than-white-defendants-for-the-same-crime/?mobile=nc

The exact same thing happens in the judicial system, and it's well-known and well-documented. Racism like this is systemic, not personal. It's built into the way these kids are treated from the time they enroll in school.

Quote
Someone with an eye toward gang activity might see the red of a sneaker peeking through a 5 year old's shoes as a sign of gang membership. And I hate to say this as it breaks my heart, many gangs have no age limits. Yes, 5 year olds and younger are not let alone by them. Some baby showers have been gang themed.


It breaks my heart to hear you say that, too, but for entirely different reasons.

Quote
It's disgusting what happened to this little one. What is more disgusting is the idea that someone outside of the school in the child's life may already have introduced the child to a destructive cycle that schools hope to break, but get blasted with almost every attempt to do so. It may not be the case in this instance, but it could be easily.


Or they could have given the kid shoes. Or just grabbed a sharpie and finished the job to see how that went over, if they're really worried that there's an ulterior motive. The issue here most likely the poverty that prevented this child's mom from getting him black shoes. Just... which is more common? A five year old who's a gang member proudly flaunting dress-code rules in front of his fellow five year old gang members, or a five year old whose mom is too poor to buy him a new pair of shoes?
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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2013, 01:09:30 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;95430



All the above could be possible, would that justify making a 5 year old child ride in the back of a police cruiser?  I think Randall's comments are spot on.
It might not be traumatizing for adults like us, but I think a small child would be strongly freaked out by that-- because, you know, that's what cops do to bad people.  Multiply the trauma if the kid's punishment was racially motivated, as the article seems to suggest.  (Strangely, though, the article doesn't mention the kid's ethnicity.....)

 
I'm saying it doesn't have to be traumatizing to the child. You and Randall seem to be replying as if it can only be traumatizing. I disagree with that.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2013, 01:25:48 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;95433
I'm saying it doesn't have to be traumatizing to the child. You and Randall seem to be replying as if it can only be traumatizing. I disagree with that.

Even the merest possibility of trauma-- especially upon a child-- is enough to warrant the loudest objection.
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Juniperberry

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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2013, 01:51:28 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;95434
Even the merest possibility of trauma-- especially upon a child-- is enough to warrant the loudest objection.

 
While noble, this isn't always practical and can also be detrimental to the greater interests of the child.

Let's assume there's a zero tolerance policy because the area has a history of gang violence. The boy doesn't have to be a gang member himself to be a victim of this violence, so to take precautions against that, the school establishes a dress code. Maybe going home in a police car is scary, but does protecting the child from that outeigh the very possible risk of physical harm or death if he were to remain at the school?

Neither you nor I can say with a 100% certainty what the situation is at school or at home. I don't see the harm in questioning the possible facts and events of this incident.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2013, 03:25:09 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;95363
I don't know that its thatbig of a deal. My kids love firemen and police officers and wave at them all the time. (I think it's actually more abusive to teach them that law enforcement is the bad guy.)
(snip)
Eta: Just wanted to add that my children are taught that the police are there to help and protect everyone rather than taught that the police are bad and out to get you. So they would feel safe and comfortable in the presence of one and not terrified and psychologically traumatized.

 
(There's gonna be some triggers re: police here, folks.)
That's nice for your children, and raise them how you want, but it's not true.  For many people, in many communities, the police are the most dangerous people you could meet.  It isn't to say that all police are bad, or the idea of police is bad--it's that for many of us, particularly people of color, developing a healthy wariness of police officers can save our lives.  I have a minister friend who obsessively checks the function of the lights on any car he drives because he's been pulled over so many times on false pretexts and, as he said, "Once they pull me over, they can do anything.  Plant drugs in my car, say they saw me diving for the glove box and shoot me, anything."  (He's, of course, Black.)  I have watched on-duty officers in uniform sexually assault a friend minutes after threatening to have me raped, when neither of us had committed a crime.  (We're both trans women, and I'm brown.)  I have been harassed and threatened by on-duty officers for being visibly trans and brown, and I have also had them refuse to investigate crimes perpetrated against me and friends and family of color, including when people were setting off explosives in my parents' yard to scare them out of the neighborhood.

Look, I have worked in law enforcement, and I have worked with cops.  I know the good ones.  But I also have countless stories from loved ones and trusted sources showing racial profiling, unnecessary brutality, and corruption.  I live in a community where people have been raped and killed by police officers who faced no consequences.  I have police in the extended family, and I know the statistics for domestic violence perpetrated by officers, and I have had coworkers who made those statistics no surprise.  (One coworker, a longtime cop, told me how her colleagues used to lock trans women up with male felons and watch them get brutalized on camera for laughs.)  I came of age in Portland, Oregon, where the police force has had numerous scandals with officers devotedly involved in white-supremacist and neo-Nazi groups.  I currently live in the Bay Area in California, where a young Black man held down and restrained was shot in the back by an officer a full couple of paces away, by "accident."

What I am saying is:  I do not grant any person in uniform my automatic trust and in my world it is foolish and dangerous to do so.  For me, a police officer is a (usually) man, with a gun, who I don't know, and who knows the system will protect him if he chooses to hurt me.  Why would I feel safe around such a person?  Not only that, he is a stranger with a gun who is statistically likely to be conservative, homophobic, transphobic, and racist.  Not taking that into account and being nervous is taking my life into my hands, period.  A police officer has to prove trustworthiness to me same as anyone else.

And for my kids, when I'm raising them?  Teaching them that all police officers are safe, friendly, kind, and there to protect them would be inadequately preparing them for the world they will live in, and putting them, in all likelihood, in danger.  To me, that is much more abusive than teaching them to be wary of the police.  Teaching my kids to feel safe and comfortable around people they are not actually safe with sounds like a terrible idea.
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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2013, 03:36:44 am »
Quote from: Valentine;95439


 
All of the arguements so far are compelling, but the issue for me personally is the fact that the police were called to escort a five year old child home because he was wearing the wrong colour shoes. What the hell were the school thinking? If my daughter's school did that I would go absolutely mental! The whole thing is so completely OTT as to be laughable if it weren't so appalling. The child's parents have every right to be angry.

Also, what a complete waste of police time and resources. They have much more important things to do that escort a five year old home for wearing the wrong colour shoes.

I can understand a zero tolerance policy for a lot of things, but for a small child's shoe colour?  Speak to the parent(s), discuss the issue, find out what the problems are and find a civilised way to resolve it. You just don't call the police as a first resort. I cannot understand what the school is thinking!
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Re: Five-year-old wears wrong color shoes, gets sent home in cop car
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2013, 03:40:23 am »
Quote from: Dark Midnight;95441
Also, what a complete waste of police time and resources. They have much more important things to do that escort a five year old home for wearing the wrong colour shoes.

 
I mean, I think maybe some people aren't sitting back and envisioning an actual real-life five-year-old.  Who here spends time around five-year-olds on the regular?  Care to weigh in on their capacities for menace?  For how they'd feel being dragged off without their parents?  If it helps, imagine a well-to-do white five-year-old.
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* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall