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Author Topic: UK Riots Spreading  (Read 3298 times)

sailor

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Re: UK Riots Spreading
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2011, 02:09:18 pm »
Quote from: Pyperlie;11725
Other than the Southern Bread Riots in 1863 and the Boston Bread Riots in the early 18th century (which you may not feel count since they were not in the US at the time), there's the Four Riot of the early 19th century, and of course some Great Depression food riots.  I can't think of any in recent history, but we haven't had large numbers starving in the streets in recent history, either.

I was primarily thinking of food riots around the world.  And the fact that, in a lot of poor countries that've had food riots, food scarcity is endemic.  They're used to going hungry, and can still only take it for so long.  Most Americans today are totally unaccustomed to hunger, and I can't imagine we as a group would take it very well.

Now, I could certainly be wrong, but seeing how many governments have been toppled over the centuries due to widespread hunger (I'll take "Let them eat cake" for a thousand, Alex), it seems foolish to think it can't or won't happen here, given enough people who are hungry enough, long enough.

 
I'm going to dismiss the early 18th century riots based upon time since, not upon it not being the US at the time.

Got a link to US Great Depression food riots?

Although I was looking at US riots since the mid 1960s onward, and ones that lasted more than 24 hours and/or resulted in significant property damage.

AlisonLeighLilly

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Re: UK Riots Spreading
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2011, 03:17:29 pm »
Quote from: sailor;11732
I'm going to dismiss the early 18th century riots based upon time since, not upon it not being the US at the time.

Got a link to US Great Depression food riots?

Although I was looking at US riots since the mid 1960s onward, and ones that lasted more than 24 hours and/or resulted in significant property damage.

 
That's a pretty short time frame, don't you think? Does basic human nature change so rapidly that we shouldn't consider any historical evidence if it's more than fifty years old? Or are you trying to make some other point that I'm totally missing?

--Ali

sailor

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Re: UK Riots Spreading
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2011, 05:59:35 pm »
Quote from: AlisonLeighLilly;11744
That's a pretty short time frame, don't you think? Does basic human nature change so rapidly that we shouldn't consider any historical evidence if it's more than fifty years old? Or are you trying to make some other point that I'm totally missing?

--Ali

 
The Flour Riot was 1837, or about 180 years ago.  

Society has significantly changed in the past 100 to 150 years.  We have gone from a primarily agraian society to a post-industrial one.

HeartShadow

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Re: UK Riots Spreading
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2011, 06:15:06 pm »
Quote from: sailor;11781
The Flour Riot was 1837, or about 180 years ago.  

Society has significantly changed in the past 100 to 150 years.  We have gone from a primarily agraian society to a post-industrial one.

 
Which would make food problems WORSE, because we don't have any idea how to mitigate the problem with gardens/hunting/whatnot.

Etheric1

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Re: UK Riots Spreading
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2011, 06:24:36 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;11543
I hope things calm down in the UK soon. Unfortunately, from what I'm seeing from news reports it seems to be getting worse, not better.

To be honest, I'm surprised we haven't had riots in the US yet with the extremely high unemployment we have and the Republican desire to cut social programs to nothing while telling people they just need to get used to the very high unemployment (with no social safety net). Especially given the long hot summer we are having.

 
You and me both!  That might be right around the corner.
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sailor

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Re: UK Riots Spreading
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2011, 07:19:07 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;11788
Which would make food problems WORSE, because we don't have any idea how to mitigate the problem with gardens/hunting/whatnot.

 
Other way around.  The rioters can't destroy the primary food reserves since the food isn't in the city.  Nor is it even close to the city.

AlisonLeighLilly

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Re: UK Riots Spreading
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2011, 09:24:50 pm »
Quote from: sailor;11814
Other way around.  The rioters can't destroy the primary food reserves since the food isn't in the city.  Nor is it even close to the city.

 
I'm still confused. You're worried about people rioting with food rather than about food?

I think the point is that those who are participating in food riots around the world are rioting because they don't have access to food. HeartShadow's right - it's this lack of access and lack of alternatives that gives rise to the food riots in the first place and makes the problem worse. It sounds like you're saying something akin to, "Thank the gods those thirsty people don't have water, or they'd really be angry!" That doesn't make sense to me.

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sailor

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Re: UK Riots Spreading
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2011, 10:27:52 pm »
Quote from: AlisonLeighLilly;11859
I'm still confused. You're worried about people rioting with food rather than about food?

I think the point is that those who are participating in food riots around the world are rioting because they don't have access to food. HeartShadow's right - it's this lack of access and lack of alternatives that gives rise to the food riots in the first place and makes the problem worse. It sounds like you're saying something akin to, "Thank the gods those thirsty people don't have water, or they'd really be angry!" That doesn't make sense to me.

--Ali


No, I'm saying that none of the riots since WWII in the US have been over food. Nor has the significant target of what is looted been food.

Nor would local govts permit the situation deteriote to the position that people would riot over getting access to enough food to survive.  

In the pre-industrial era, actual lack of food was an issue (along with the price of food stuffs, hence "let them eat cake").  

Take a look at the riots over the past 40 or so years.  Significant number of buildings and stores destroyed by looting and or arson.  In old times that kind of damage would have resulted in the destruction of the primary food supply for the area.  That can't happen in the near future US (slightly longer future see Dark Winter or Last Centurian for details of what it would take to cause food riots).  Now such destruction only results in the removal of places to buy food or other stuff.

As for outside the US, it has been the price of food not lack of actual food that has caused riots, or more recently overthrow of the Eqption govt.  Although there is a fair chance that within the next 18 months there will be a serious and extended lack of actual food in Egypt.

Inca

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Re: UK Riots Spreading
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2011, 09:10:08 am »
Quote from: sailor;11870
That can't happen in the near future US (slightly longer future see Dark Winter or Last Centurian for details of what it would take to cause food riots).

 
I am totally at loss what you are trying to say here or once again what it matters... I think the people in the UK whos houses have burned or stores destroyed don't particularly care about how it is or isn't a food riot.
Good grief, how come you always end up with those weird semantical / factual pingpong games and seem totally oblivious to the people that got hurt, or the property that got destroyed? (And to that it is totally much more beneficial to avoid riots about food or whatnot, rather than just convincing yourselves that it won't happen.... until it just might.)

sailor

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Re: UK Riots Spreading
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2011, 11:46:56 am »
Quote from: Inca;11952
I am totally at loss what you are trying to say here or once again what it matters... I think the people in the UK whos houses have burned or stores destroyed don't particularly care about how it is or isn't a food riot.
Good grief, how come you always end up with those weird semantical / factual pingpong games and seem totally oblivious to the people that got hurt, or the property that got destroyed? (And to that it is totally much more beneficial to avoid riots about food or whatnot, rather than just convincing yourselves that it won't happen.... until it just might.)

 
Read back the thread. An assertion was made by Pyperlie that the US was looking at riots caused by lack of food when the welfare / unemployment checks / etc are cut such that folks won't have money to buy food.

Why does this ping ponging happen?  I dispute unfounded assertions made by other posters.

Dark Midnight

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Re: UK Riots Spreading
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2011, 12:06:00 pm »
Quote from: sailor;11993

Just to update people:- the weather has turned absolutely atrocious over here this afternoon so hopefully there will be a lot less trouble tonight. The police were hoping for the weather to get this bad because rioters are much less inclined to be out in the pouring rain! :cf:
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 12:06:29 pm by Dark Midnight »
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Pyperlie

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Re: UK Riots Spreading
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2011, 01:51:04 pm »
Quote from: sailor;11732
I'm going to dismiss the early 18th century riots based upon time since, not upon it not being the US at the time.

Got a link to US Great Depression food riots?

Although I was looking at US riots since the mid 1960s onward, and ones that lasted more than 24 hours and/or resulted in significant property damage.

 
Most things only mention them in passing, and they seem to be pretty isolated, but considering the era, I'd be more surprised if they'd caught fire and spread across the country.

Link 1

Link 2


Near-riot in England, AR


They seem to've all been before 1932, although it's hard to be sure w/o some extensive research.   In fact, a cursory look through google books shows food riots mentioned in passing in virtually every book about the depression, but they don't really go into detail, which is damn annoying.

Of course, the fact that charity and Al Capone were able to feed a lot of people probably helped keep things relatively calm, which is really my point.  Food stamps serve a lot of people right now, and soup kitchens and food pantries are still stretched to the breaking point.  What will happen if they cut off federal food aid and there are even more people depending on those charities?  What if there is another big natural disaster; IIRC a shit-ton of people from the areas hit by Katrina were on food stamps for a long time.  What if there's bad harvests?  Even if there's enough food, the price would skyrocket, which would make it unaffordable for a lot people on the edge already.
Every world spins in pain. If there is any kind of supreme being ... it is up to all of us to become his moral superior.”
~~The Patrician, Unseen Academicals by Terry Pratchett

AlisonLeighLilly

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Re: UK Riots Spreading
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2011, 02:26:38 pm »
Quote from: Dark Midnight;12000
Just to update people:- the weather has turned absolutely atrocious over here this afternoon so hopefully there will be a lot less trouble tonight. The police were hoping for the weather to get this bad because rioters are much less inclined to be out in the pouring rain! :cf:

 
I hope you're right and the rain helps to quell the violence some and soothe tensions. (Not to mention, churning water - like in rain, waterfalls, etc. - generate negative ions in the air which can have a mood-enhancing effect. I'll be adding my prayers to the rain.)

--Ali

sailor

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Re: UK Riots Spreading
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2011, 04:17:22 pm »
Quote from: Pyperlie;12015
Most things only mention them in passing, and they seem to be pretty isolated, but considering the era, I'd be more surprised if they'd caught fire and spread across the country.
(snip)
They seem to've all been before 1932, although it's hard to be sure w/o some extensive research.   In fact, a cursory look through google books shows food riots mentioned in passing in virtually every book about the depression, but they don't really go into detail, which is damn annoying.

Of course, the fact that charity and Al Capone were able to feed a lot of people probably helped keep things relatively calm, which is really my point.  Food stamps serve a lot of people right now, and soup kitchens and food pantries are still stretched to the breaking point.  What will happen if they cut off federal food aid and there are even more people depending on those charities?  What if there is another big natural disaster; IIRC a shit-ton of people from the areas hit by Katrina were on food stamps for a long time.  What if there's bad harvests?  Even if there's enough food, the price would skyrocket, which would make it unaffordable for a lot people on the edge already.

 
Yeah, not a lot of detail. What little is mentioned though is that the looting was limited to food stores, not general arson and destruction as has been seen in US urban riots since the mid 1960s.

Remember though the proposed cuts for food stamps is reductions, not elimination of the program.

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