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Author Topic: Worship? Honor? Venerate? What?  (Read 14511 times)

Nyktipolos

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Re: Worship? Honor? Venerate? What?
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2011, 04:40:43 am »
Quote from: starlilica;1839
IIRC, I remember someone saying somewhere that it wasn't how the Ancient Greeks prayed. This site has a reference to it but I don't know how accurate it is.

 
Thanks for the link. :)

Yes, that is/was exactly the reason. Then again by that point I was already starting to move away from Hellenic Reconstructionism, so what the ancient Greeks did started becoming less and less priority.
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Re: Worship? Honor? Venerate? What?
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2011, 04:52:15 am »
Quote from: Starglade;1265

So--what do YOU do?

 I worship, honour, venerate, and "work with," in both a reciprocal, and symbiotic relationship. It has been said above that "worship" carries negative undertones, which I'm guessing could come from one's negative experiences in birth religions. I've also heard quite a few pagans say they dislike the term "work with", because it implies a hubris dis-acknowledgement of the divine, more along the lines of using a deity to impose their will, rather than living in  piety.

I understand both, and I think it really depends on the magico-religious nature. "Working with" would be more along the lines of magic(k), and "worship" religious. It probably just boils down to the nature of one's path, for instance those following  magico-religious paths such as pagan/religious witchcraft would probably be familiar with both, and say a Ceremonial Magician, and someone following Hellenismos, would probably view them differently.
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Re: Worship? Honor? Venerate? What?
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2011, 05:02:36 am »
Quote from: Sage;1377
It's funny, because I do the "asking for assistance/guidance with humility" thing too, but I don't call it worship. Usually.


Maybe it's just seeing you mention your fannishness in another thread, but I am completely failing to avoid envisioning angry little pepperpots rolling around pointing their eyestalks at people and going, "VENERATE!  VENERATE!"

...ahem.  I think I inherited a sort of Pacific Islander attitude toward deity, which is that a lot of them are like ancestors but more so.  They know more and can do more than I can, they deserve my respect and deference, and there is a sort of familial relationship.  They get offerings from me as a sign of respect and affection and dedication, and I feel obligated to do right by them.  There are deities who get respect but with whom I don't have any particular connection, and it's sort of like a magnified version of dealing with other people's important relatives--she ain't my grandma, and doesn't get a holiday card, but I'll be treating her with respect.  
I don't know, the analogy kind of breaks down eventually.
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Re: Worship? Honor? Venerate? What?
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2011, 02:06:26 pm »
Quote from: Starglade;1782
-snip-

Worship. I never really get many vibes from Caesar, but anything less than worship seems not the way to go. Not to say that my practice is anything less than muttered mantras and a nightly prayer, but I think y'all know what I mean.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 02:07:00 pm by Castus »
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Re: Worship? Honor? Venerate? What?
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2011, 02:12:07 pm »
Quote from: Valentine;1851


...ahem.  I think I inherited a sort of Pacific Islander attitude toward deity, which is that a lot of them are like ancestors but more so.  They know more and can do more than I can, they deserve my respect and deference, and there is a sort of familial relationship.  They get offerings from me as a sign of respect and affection and dedication, and I feel obligated to do right by them.  There are deities who get respect but with whom I don't have any particular connection, and it's sort of like a magnified version of dealing with other people's important relatives--she ain't my grandma, and doesn't get a holiday card, but I'll be treating her with respect.  
I don't know, the analogy kind of breaks down eventually.

 
I feel very similar to this. "Worship" is rooted in an OE word that originally meant "worth-ship". It wasn't until the 13th century that it became a verb. I have a worth-ship with my gods; I see their value and character and honor them appropriately. In turn, I hope this adds to my worth-ship with them and my ancestors.
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Tay Redgrave

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Re: Worship? Honor? Venerate? What?
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2011, 02:52:26 pm »
Quote from: Starglade;1265
So--what do YOU do?

I didn't notice this, haha. -ahem- I don't feel that my giving offerings and doing devotional acts (or trying to) is worship. It makes me feel weird thinking that because what I feel I am doing is showing the gods that I respect them (and am in gratitude for all they've done) and am trying to give them the respect (and devotion) they deserve. It's more like.. honoring them or giving reverence to them.

I don't view asking for assistance, help or guidance in something as an act of worship. I do it because I trust them and experience has shown me that they are willing to help. I try not to ask often though and only do it when I think that I may need it. I see it more or less as me turning to a close friend for help/assistance.

EJay

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Re: Worship? Honor? Venerate? What?
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2011, 06:05:00 am »
Quote from: Starglade;1265
So--what do YOU do? How do you define your interactions with the divine, for lack of a more comprehensive term?

 
When I'm connecting with God (panentheism part), it's not worship so much as going within and realigning myself with the realization that I'm not only human, I am God (as Pythagoras would say, "Thou Art God.").

When I'm talking to Pele (polytheist part), it's still not worship so much as a mentor/mentee relationship in understanding the life epic.  She I can actually talk to as an outside entity from myself (although we're both still a part of God).  But if she wants a bottle of rum to spare my home on Hawai'i, I'll give her the bottle of rum.  Just as if I was working for, say, Bill Gates and he wanted four sugars and three creamers in his coffee each morning, I'd give him four sugars and three creamers as an offering to incur his favor and acknowledgement of my humility and willingness to learn from his knowledge and experience.  And that's what I think it is--a mundane way to show humility.  I humble myself in deference of their knowledge and experience, knowing that I'm not less than they are, but their knowledge and experience (at present) exceeds mine.

I could never worship anything/one because that implies to me an eternal separation from that which is worshipped.  Honoring is like a recognition of a single event.  Venerate is kind of a weird word to me, actually, and just brings feelings of permanent separation between the venerated and the venerator.

Words mean different things to different people depending on association.  I use the term God.  Immediately I know what a lot of y'all will picture when I use that term and that presumption just ain't so in my world.  As I post more, I'll quit qualifying the term.  I just find this post an interesting reminder of the language barrier even when we all seem to be speaking the same language.

Best~
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treekisser

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Re: Worship? Honor? Venerate? What?
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2011, 09:23:02 pm »
Quote from: Starglade;1265
to align myself more completely with a given emanation

 
This this this. Other stuff too (below), but I remember Star saying she didn't get the way I conceived of prayer as opening myself up. Aligning myself is another way of putting it - I agree with other people that prayer is about communicating, it's just that I put the emphasis less on talking and more on listening. Tuning in, aligning to, embodying.

Quote
So--what do YOU do? How do you define your interactions with the divine, for lack of a more comprehensive term?


I do use 'worship' to characterise the way I relate to God/the Divine/Absolute/Ultimate Reality/whatever, and I don't use it with godforms. It's mainly a way of distinguishing the fact that I can occasionally feel an almost total, peaceful self-ablation towards God etc which I don't feel in my relationship with anything else.

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Re: Worship? Honor? Venerate? What?
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2011, 09:38:52 pm »
Quote from: treekisser;4992
It's mainly a way of distinguishing the fact that I can occasionally feel an almost total, peaceful self-ablation towards God etc which I don't feel in my relationship with anything else.


Me too.  My problem is I don't do formal prayer to invite this feeling - it sweeps in and takes over sometimes when I pray.  It is so sweet and so seductive that it makes me avoid praying, but sometimes it comes anyway.

It has also come when I've been gravely ill and/or technically dead, which is another reason I run from it.  I'm just not done here yet, and I don't want to stay in that state too long in case I can't get out of it.

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Starglade

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Re: Worship? Honor? Venerate? What?
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2011, 10:05:09 pm »
Quote from: treekisser;4992
This this this. Other stuff too (below), but I remember Star saying she didn't get the way I conceived of prayer as opening myself up. Aligning myself is another way of putting it - I agree with other people that prayer is about communicating, it's just that I put the emphasis less on talking and more on listening. Tuning in, aligning to, embodying.





There's a wonderful quote from Mother Teresa about prayer. I don't have it precisely, but the gist is: "I don't talk to God. I just sit and listen to what He has to say." She was asked what He usually said, and her answer was: "Nothing, He just listens. And if you don't understand that, I can't explain it to you."
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treekisser

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Re: Worship? Honor? Venerate? What?
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2011, 10:25:47 pm »
Quote from: Marilyn/Absentminded;5002
Me too.  My problem is I don't do formal prayer to invite this feeling - it sweeps in and takes over sometimes when I pray.  It is so sweet and so seductive that it makes me avoid praying, but sometimes it comes anyway.

For me it sweeps in occasionally during formal prayer. Very occasionally - maybe I could count three times. But at least praying generally makes me calmer.

Also, I never realised you prayed. I know you negotiate a lot with Coyote, and have set tasks, but not a lot else (unless you're talking about someone else?).

Quote
It has also come when I've been gravely ill and/or technically dead, which is another reason I run from it.

I'm lucky that I can't say I've been so ill, but I'll say that I don't think the feeling's necessarily beneficial. Granted, a lot of my late teens was screwed up by hormones, but it didn't help that I had that one mind-blowing no-self experience and felt the world was empty after that. :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 10:26:26 pm by treekisser »

treekisser

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Re: Worship? Honor? Venerate? What?
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2011, 10:27:15 pm »
Quote from: Starglade;5021
There's a wonderful quote from Mother Teresa about prayer. I don't have it precisely, but the gist is: "I don't talk to God. I just sit and listen to what He has to say." She was asked what He usually said, and her answer was: "Nothing, He just listens. And if you don't understand that, I can't explain it to you."

 
That sounds beautiful, even if it's just the gist. Thanks for sharing. :)

DashesAgainst

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Re: Worship? Honor? Venerate? What?
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2011, 01:52:18 am »
This.

Quote from: Starglade;1782
As usual speaking only for myself: I don't have any particularly negative baggage associated with the word "worship." It's that for me, that is something one renders to a deity...


And this...

Quote from: Nyktipolos;1817
This is how I view "worship" as well. I don't have any negativity associated with the word either, so I don't view "worship" in a negative way...

...The same goes for kneeling (or submission, I can't quite recall. But I'm pretty sure it started with kneeling) before an altar or shrine. I recall getting into a discussion on another board that it was something inappropriate to do, especially for the Hellenic Gods, and I just remember being baffled that it was somehow bad or wrong, because inherently I didn't see it that way. It just seemed natural to me to kneel before God(s) to show reverence to Them. Then again, if a God told me to stand, then hell yeah I would! But that's just my... default stance.

I worship Greek gods and kneel before them as well, even though doing so isn't the "traditional Greek" prayer stance. I do it out of love & reverence for beings who are so much greater than I am.

They not only deserve my respect, heck, they've earned it! They have done so much for me over the years, often without being asked, and often when I haven't deserved it.

That said, I don't grovel or debase myself.  I also don't "work with" them as if we are equals, or "honor" them is if I were doing them a favor.  

But that's just how I see it, I know others have different interpretations.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 01:53:23 am by DashesAgainst »
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Re: Worship? Honor? Venerate? What?
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2011, 03:08:18 am »
Quote from: Starglade;5021
There's a wonderful quote from Mother Teresa about prayer. I don't have it precisely, but the gist is: "I don't talk to God. I just sit and listen to what He has to say." She was asked what He usually said, and her answer was: "Nothing, He just listens. And if you don't understand that, I can't explain it to you."

 
I'm with Mother Teresa, sounds good. Meditations and prayer can quieten the busy mind enough to facilitate improved spiritual connection, and for me another level from that is to actually tell my physical mind to relinquish ownership of the soul. It sounds funny, thinking 'as if my mind owns my soul', when in fact the mind probably thinks it is the soul, which I disagree with but I think its the way the mind works. Anyway... in my belief connection is communication and the individual soul is a small part of the larger diety. So for my personal panentheistic practise, the answer to your original question is that it tends to be worship for me, and ritual is instead about interaction with other matters spiritual component. That then means those rituals involve different degrees of equivilancy and therefore more human and physical like gestures such as the acts of veneration, etc.

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Re: Worship? Honor? Venerate? What?
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2011, 05:48:42 am »
Quote from: treekisser;5034


Also, I never realised you prayed. I know you negotiate a lot with Coyote, and have set tasks, but not a lot else (unless you're talking about someone else?).



Yes, I negotiate and make deals with Coyote.  Prayer actually goes to a goddess that I don't talk about much.  He's the invisible puppy in the crib and I don't have a reverential relationship with him.  I get the occasional puppy-pile feeling from him as  comfort, but he's not really that sort of being with me.  (I believe Sunflower's experience of him is different)  

She, on the other hand, is an encompassing night that I've never sought too much knowledge of - she attracts me and dances and inspires worship.  She's more private.  She's the one that sweeping away comes in relationship to.

Absent
I smile when I\'m angry.  I cheat and I lie
I do what I have to do to get by
But I know what is wrong, and I know what is right
And I die for the truth in my secret life

   In My Secret Life, L. Cohen

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